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High Fives with Jeremy Levine (WalkMe)

Ryan O'Hara sat down and talked with Jeremy Levine about remote working culture, climbing your way into management, prospecting in Israel, and how WalkMe has grown over the past few years thanks to outbound.



Speaker 1: Ryan O'Hara
You're listening to the lead IQ prospecting podcast. It might not be the best podcast, but, it's probably one of the better sales ones that are out there, whether you're a seasoned sales leader or an STR trying to call their way out of their mother's basement. We're talking about the different ways that you can learn the art of prospecting. Let's cue some music. So we sound cooler. This podcast is brought to you by lead IQ. Let's just say that you saw a beautiful sunset on the beach and because of the beauty, a tear rolls down your cheek. That's what using lead IQ is like, are you crying? No, I'm recording. What you, what are you doing anyways? If you're tired of doing meaningless tasks and want to focus just on prospecting, writing, good cold emails and doing good cold calls, right from the places that you are prospecting. Visit talk to a real that will take you right to a person's calendar. And you can talk to our team and check out what we can do to help speed up your prospecting. Now, the excuse me, I've got a podcast to go do Tata. Hi everyone. Welcome to the prospecting podcast. I'm Ryan O'Hara my guest today just said the most unbelievable things off camera that you will never ever get to hear. Cause I didn't hit record soon enough. Um, but I I'm really excited to have everyone say hi to Jeremy Levine. Hey Jeremy.

Speaker 2: Jeremy Levine
Hey Ryan, how are you doing man? Good. I totally

Speaker 1: (01:15)
Blew it. Right. Um, so, uh, for people that don't know Jeremy, he's the director of international business development at walk me, walk me is one of like our I'd call them a super customer for lead IQ. Like we hang out with the team and talked to them all the time. We get advice from them and stuff. And uh, a lot of people in my office and be like, Oh, that's Jeremy, Jeremy's really smart. He knows a lot of stuff. And I'm like, Oh, I gotta get this dude on my podcast. So, um, I, I did a post. Jeremy mentioned it. I was like, yeah, let's get together and do it. Jeremy's coming to you live from Israel, right? That's correct. So, uh, you missed a really Epic backstory. Um, but uh, Jeremy, what the hell? How'd you end up in Israel?

Speaker 2: (01:57)
I, okay, so it's, it's a two-part story. I, it started, I, I went to school at the university of Denver. I studied art and I, after I finished university, I got a residency here in Israel, uh, in the desert. They gave me like in a studio and apartment a meal a day, a couple exhibitions. They're like come to Israel. I'm like, I'm on my way. Right? And I got to produce so much artwork and, uh, and fell in love with Tel-Aviv. And I became a citizen in the state and I, this was, I was 25 years old and I got drafted as part of my citizenship. And um, towards the end of my service, I met my future wife, who was one of my officers. She was in charge of social work and finances. And that was what was called a loan or a, which means I had no family here and they weren't paying me. So she was there to help out. I who knew

Speaker 1: (02:47)
It all came together.

Speaker 2: (02:49)
So we went back, I went back to Denver, she followed me out and we were there for, uh, about six, seven years. And, uh, after our first child was born, we're like, well, we always wanted to move back. If we don't do it now, we'll, we'll never do it. We got caught up in life. So we, uh, we packed our stuff, you know, left our nice cushy lifestyle. I came here and lived in her parents' house with all of her siblings, their boyfriends children. I, you know, it was like being in a kibbutz, the size of a house. Uh, and that was the start of the adventure. Right. And, and the thing about when you move your life like that, when I, when I came here, I was a wine professional, uh, back in 2008, I'd spent years in the wine industry in the United States. Uh, I studied, I, you know, I taught, I knew sales, marketing, brand building, and I was I'll, I'll bring this new skill set that I have back to Israel. First time I lived here, I was an artist. That's not worth anything. Now I've got skills and found out that's not worth anything. And you have to reinvent yourself. And I've probably been through five different iterations of myself in the

Speaker 1: (03:56)
Talk about, let's talk about that a little bit, if that's cool. Yeah, sure. So reinventing yourself. Uh, a lot of people actually do this. I mean, I'll give you an example for me. I was a BDR out of college. I wanted to be a marketer, but I graduated like the same year that you went to Israel. I graduated college and I had in marketing internship, and I got a lot of interviews at places. But what ended up happening was because of the recession, like all these mid-level marketers were getting laid off and taking entry level jobs. So like, I'd go interview somewhere in the back. Yeah. We love your experience. Love your energy. You're really creative. Um, we love the stuff that you've done in your background, but I've got this person that's willing to get paid the same. That's been doing marketing for five or six years and take that spot.

Speaker 1: (04:37)
And like this happened over and over and over again. Cause I worked my network that I made from people I met during my internship. Um, for example, like I cut a lot of videos from conferences and the people that I'd cut interviews with, I was doing video editing and stuff during my internship, as a marketing person, making content for the YouTube channel and stuff. I'd like, go add those people on LinkedIn. I'd ping them. Be like, Hey, I'm going to be looking for work in a couple of months. Like really trying to business development my way into that.

Speaker 2: (05:02)
Yeah. So prospect your next role.

Speaker 1: (05:06)
I kind of fell into like having to reinvent myself as a BDR. Like that's how I ended up getting involved in sales. So you reinvented yourself, um, like as a wine connoisseur, doing stuff you did marketing and brand stuff for that. What did you translate over to when you came to Israel?

Speaker 2: (05:22)
Well, I tried to do wine for a while, but I ended up like, you know, having to reset and start at the very bottom. Um, and I was like the most overqualified wine poorer in the, in the grocery store with all these kids. I, and it was just, it was, it was just ridiculous. Um, and so one of the catches is my Hebrew, my, my language skills as an American, not great. Right. My kids love to make fun of me. I, and it's been a challenge, you know, I've gotten better over a decade, but, uh, it's, it's the curse of the one language person. Quick question

Speaker 1: (05:55)
For you on that actually. Cause I've never been to Israel. Do you need to do most people in Israel? They all speak English too, right?

Speaker 2: (06:01)
They do to a degree, but it's, if you're part of society, if you're part of the Israeli society, you've got to speak more Hebrew and I've, you know, I I've survived as, uh, as you know, a, an English speaker for quite a while, but professionally, like you need to have an English speaking job if your Hebrew is not at professional level.

Speaker 1: (06:21)
Got it. Okay. Like you have to have a job involved with the English language or something.

Speaker 2: (06:25)
So there, there's lots of different roles, you know, in the country. And at the time that I was coming up, I Forex and, and online trading became really big. And I, and it provided actually, you know, one of the better livings I had since I've been here, like I worked in call centers and, you know, I sold ads to, you know, I don't know it was the, the event industry for two years in the UK, uh, cold calling the UK, like, you know, photographers and people that ran CNO, the mobile Lou and I, and it was just everything across the board. I, and then I got into trading and, um, it was fun for a while, but that industry like changed radically, uh, throughout the time I was in it in the beginning, it was really fun. It was exciting. You know, we had fun with it

Speaker 1: (07:14)
For people that don't know, cause some people might be like, you know, the STRs and BR you mean like commodity trading and stuff. Is that like,

Speaker 2: (07:20)
Okay, so Forex trading is the trading of, uh, like currencies against each other. Right, right. Okay. Okay. So, and then Israelis took it to another stage and they created something called binary options. Okay. Uh, which was basically it's absolute BS. I mean, I have no other way to put it. Uh, the industry is dead. I, it was completely a scam industry. Um, but there was a moment in time when I joined it was regulated. Right. And

Speaker 1: (07:48)
Then they realize what is a binary option. Exactly.

Speaker 2: (07:51)
So basically they'd say like, is the price of the Euro against the dollar going to go up or down in the next five minutes? And it was down to the fourth or fifth decimal points of the price, which is like the PIP or the like the very end of the point. That's it fluctuates very fast. Right. Because the, the, the Forex market is always moving.

Speaker 1: (08:11)
So are you exchanging currencies super quickly in that type of business? You're betting against them. Oh, okay. Okay.

Speaker 2: (08:18)
Um, and basically it was a form of online gambling is what it really was. Right. But the way that the, that it was brought up is that, um, they were selling it as a real trading commodity. It's not like it doesn't exist anymore. It was completely taped, uh, which for good, because, you know, it became a very scam industry and I just couldn't stand it. Like, it was just,

Speaker 1: (08:40)
It kind of sounds like, it almost sounds like, um, like penny stocks that they sell in, like the Wolf of wall street.

Speaker 2: (08:46)
Yeah. Oh. It was like Wolf of wall street was like the dream, right. That was like, everybody's dream, you know, that worked in that industry and, you know, fake names. And like, I, you know, and I, I kept getting fired because I refuse to scam people out of their money. Like I just refuse to do it. And you know, they'd come back to no, Jeremy, we need you to work a little bit more in the gray. And I'm like, yeah, I don't do that. I, and so I, and I'm very, very proud of this fact because it's really hard to come out of that industry on the skate. I, but after the last job in that I tried something else. And that was that. I was like, I high-tech, it's, it's the only, like it's one of the only industries as an English speaker. I, where you can actually make a real living in this country. And it's hard to make a living in this country.

Speaker 1: (09:32)
I will, I will tell you when I was a BDR, I sold for a little while. I did a lot of PR I basically would look for where accounts hadn't been touched as their sales team grew. A lot of people hadn't gone after all these great startups in Tel Aviv. Like there's a ton of great tech and, and they're well financed. And, you know, it was I, so I worked for a managed DNS provider. And, um, we like Akamai had a ton of executives that were based out of Tel Aviv, uh, as a content delivery network. And they sold DNS. Also, there was a company called contento that got acquired that was out there that had like a ton of people are like, there's a lot of great tech talent out there. And if you're selling into it or network services, and you're looking for accounts to break into, you should totally go look at some of the top startups in job postings that are out there. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: (10:18)
It's it's when you cross the line out of high-tech into the standard industries here is where it gets tricky. Israeli, you got to speak as rarely, not Hebrew, but Israeli it's a different, you know, it was funny. I was working the first year I was here. I was working in a wine shop, uh, in a, in a shopping center in Televiv. And, uh, it was a, a whole bunch of kids came in, um, Americans, I had, they came in to buy Cuban cigars. Right. We sold cigars too. And they're like, we have Cubans. And it was, you know, and they came in to buy cigars and you know, Oh, what are you guys doing here? They were from Cornell. He said, Oh, that's great. What are you guys doing now? Oh, this is part of our Israeli business course. And they teach an Israeli business course.

Speaker 2: (10:59)
Oh my God, where do I sign up? It's it's such a different way of doing business. And, and that's the other thing is like, when you're an outsider, it's, there's, there's a word in Hebrew. I learned it in the army. Uh, it's called convener. Right. And convenient means like, you know, somebody that can get something done for you, you've got a connection. Right. And that's like, the core of Israeli society, you know, in business is like convener, you know, like, ah, I've got convenient down there and we'll do that. We'll take care of it. I love that word. I love that word. I, and, but it really kind of sums up how they do business here internally. Right. I, and it's, I'll give you a great example. We live in a great city called Kfar Saba. It's really beautiful. We just got rated like the, the number one or best lifestyle for the country or living a lifestyle.

Speaker 2: (11:51)
I, and they just put whole bunch of money into art, right. Public art, but it's all one artist, one artist, all one artists. And it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And I can't imagine how much money they spend on it. And as much as like, they're really good pieces, but they're everywhere. And it drives me mad because they know I'm not a sculptor, but they could have supported so many young artists that actually needed it. Right. Especially in this time. Right. But this guy obviously has convenient with the city. Right. And that's the best way to describe it. So he has his art everywhere and no other artists is being shown. I, it drives me nuts. It just drives me absolutely crazy. But that's the Israeli mentality.

Speaker 1: (12:38)
So, uh, you've been working at walk me for awhile. Um, like w how'd you transition to the job that you're in today? Like, how'd that happen?

Speaker 2: (12:47)
I beat it against the tech. I would apply for anything. And I was looking at STR bowls. Right. I, and walk me was the only company that actually invited me in. And I, and it was, it was a fight to get in the door. It was a fight to, to get the role. I think they had some hesitancies about hiring a 42 year old, you know, STR you know, person, but through the fights, when I came in, I ended up being the very first outbound hire the company. Wow. They had some guys that were kind of doing outbound, but they hadn't, you know, they were just making it up as they go along. I'd never done the role before I, but I came with a lot of different kinds of experience in my background. I, and so I, you know, I got out there and we just started outbounding, you know, walk me, which was a super exciting product.

Speaker 1: (13:38)
How'd you outbound at first? So you're starting with, I love these types of stories. You're starting with nothing. Right. So like you're starting with

Speaker 2: (13:46)
That's. Okay. So let me, let me just explain one thing is why walk me is so exciting to outbound right. Into prospect is we're completely horizontal.

Speaker 1: (13:57)
Right? I've talked to, I've talked to people on your team about this. It's really people that listen are gonna be jealous. Go ahead.

Speaker 2: (14:02)
Okay. Yeah. It's, it's one of the reasons like it's one of the things I can't imagine, like prospecting another product. I, because we're completely horizontal. We have no limitations on verticals. We have no limitations on buying centers, right. It's a, you know, if you've got a tech stack, you could be a client of walk me, it's that simple. And I, and so we would, you know, in the beginning before we became like the full digital adoption platform, you know, vision, and this was when I joined back in 2017 was the first time when they just coined the term digital adoption platform. And we're trying to build the category of software. Uh, and I, I understand what they're doing. I started using it right away. And, you know, the young SDRs that I was working with, they're like, what, what are you, why are you using that?

Speaker 2: (14:46)
Nobody knows what it means yet. I'm like I'm using it. Cause nobody knows what it means yet. Cause we got to get people to understand what a digital adoption platform is and to create the identity and you guys. Yeah. Um, anyways, uh, so, you know, we would go after core applications, right? So you start with like, uh, Salesforce at the time was like one of our core applications. Right. And at the same time, in 2017, we started looking more and more at H H R I S right. Or HR platforms, uh, Workday and success factors. So that's kind of where you would start as those two buying centers. Okay. And as we grew, then you start adding more buying centers. Okay. We're going to start like ITSMs and let's look at external and then we've got mobile and now we can go into legal and now we can go into ERP. I, and so you just keep tacking them on. And, and the crazy thing about it is you can spend a year on a fortune 500 company and not even scratch the surface, uh, of prospecting it. And that, that makes it super exciting.

Speaker 1: (15:47)
Do you guys, do you guys kind of set up different verticals on the way the prospecting team is structured? I, I know these answers, I'm asking for the people that don't know, like,

Speaker 2: (15:55)
Um, so there is a movement, especially in international to start getting more vertical specific with, with the okay. And so, as they are in, as Aaron, Zukowsky, my counterpart in California always says, they're our customer. And I, and I love that. And, um, so we have to start catering more and more to it. Now I do have, like, I have a guy in Australia heading, uh, it was a fantastic BDR. He has a finance background. So he does really well with the banks. You know, I've got, uh, I've got Scott here in Tel Aviv who has like a call center background. So I can just kind of put him, you know, he just does really well with, uh, those kinds of, uh, you know, big companies with lots of call centers and stuff like that. I, so, and, and that's also, you know, part of like being an international as we kind of hire different people from different walks of life, uh, because they're all coming to this country looking to start a new life. Right. That's part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: (16:57)
That's a, that's a really attractive thing too, because I think one of the things you'll see in people that are probably listening to this have probably been through this sales developments, a great reset job, like getting in business development or sales developer, because you, you, um, have a unique background that you acquired through something else. Maybe you're an artist, maybe you're a musician. Maybe you tried something else. Like when I was at dine, for example, we had, um, we had a guy that literally was in a band tour nationally. They, um, he'd be like, what are we toured with? Like the arcade, fire, the killers and stuff. He's hired this guy as a BDR because his band broke up and like, he couldn't go restart it. And you realize you're 35 years old and not making enough income to actually build a life. You're like, Oh, I'll just stumble into this. Another person I'll give a shout out to his, um, Danny Hutto from, from gong, for example, he's now an events person there, but he was an SDR for them for a couple of years, Danny, what are he was, uh, uh, uh, roadie for like panting the disco and some of these bands like, yeah, you go get involved with like, you were an artist before, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: (17:59)
Well, and that's when you come from those kinds of backgrounds, you know, I think one of the, you know, I w I went to the university of Denver and they have one of the best business schools in the world. Right. Daniel's school of business. Not that I ever took a course there. And after I finished, I graduated, I was like, man, if they would have taught a class on how to be like business for artists as part of the curriculum, that would have been so valuable. Right. And, and that's, that's the problem with a lot of those, like creative degrees is they don't teach that stuff. Right. And so you go out into the market and you're like, okay, now I want to be a professional artist. What's next. Right. And you've got to, you know, and you'll find that like, a lot of the, the best selling artists today are really good at marketing.

Speaker 1: (18:46)
I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. Like part of me wonders if like I've wasted my marketing powers being in business, you know what I mean? Like I play music, I make movies. I like, I do a lot of creative stuff. And I'm wondering like, should I have spent my time and effort the past five years on that instead of lead IQ, like existentially, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: (19:06)
Yeah, yeah, no, like, you know, like I I'll retrace steps all the time, you know? And, and I'll tell you the truth every time that I try to retrace my step, it always takes me a step further away from my wife and that's unacceptable. Right. And it's like, it's like, if I would have done this, I wouldn't be married to my wife if I had done this in your wife. And, and, and, and, you know, and that's, that's definitely one of the most important things in my life and my kids are incredible. And, and that's, you know, I, I wouldn't want that. And I, you know, and it's been a crazy adventure just getting here. Right. I started as an SDR, SDR, outbound first BDR on the new BDR team, watched it scale. I took management of the team last year. I took directorship this December. I it's been an adventure, you know, an exciting adventure. And my wife has, I think she's still mourning the loss of the artists, even though I am trying to paint, you know, when I was,

Speaker 1: (20:01)
Can I ask if those paintings were yours, by the way, behind that they're in progress. So Jeremy, one thing, one thing I'll add too to this a little bit is, um, I don't know how you've been doing this, and hopefully I'm not like challenging your mind a little bit here, but like, I definitely think you should find ways to integrate your art into your prospecting. Like you, if you don't, you really could,

Speaker 2: (20:21)
Well, well, I'm not prospecting anymore. I'm leading,

Speaker 1: (20:24)
But like, but like the I'm saying like, um,

Speaker 2: (20:28)
So I have like one of the things that I'm very big into culture. Okay. And, and, and the culture of the team and the culture of the company are really important to me. And one of the things that happened at walk me, which really became amazing was is that, you know, I, I got in with, you know, I became friends with all the culture people, and then the experience people. And I remember the first thing that happened was, is, you know, everybody found out I, I was a wine as smelly, you know, and, and that's, I know a lot about wine, so, you know, I terrible habit, but I'd be out on the patio, smoking a cigarettes. And, uh, and you know, with the guys and then start asking about wine, and then, you know, one of the, the employee experience girl at the time was out there and I'm like, you know, why don't I just teach a wine class here?

Speaker 2: (21:15)
Oh, that's cool. And she's like, yeah, that's great. I'm like, great. Let's do wine classes. So I've taught a couple of wine classes for the company. You know, we just quick sign up sheets. I, you know, 20 to 50 people, something like that. And they'll give me a budget and I'll go out and get the wine. Uh, we've got walk me branded glasses, of course. And, you know, and, and we'll do one classes, uh, and this is what we miss about, you know, not having the office anymore. And then the other thing that happened was, is I kept walking around the office and I ha you know, we moved our, you know, move desks from time to time had a big blank wall. And I had this huge painting that used to cover this entire wall. And I had to get it out of my house.

Speaker 2: (21:54)
Like it was just taking up way too much space. Right. And it wasn't allowing me to paint anymore. And like, I just had to get it out. And so I'm like, Oh, this wall would be perfect for that. So I went to the, you know, the office manager and said, you know, would you like a painting here? I said, well, I'll talk to Rafi. And, you know, and like, well, why don't we have, you know, more walking employees hang out. And I said, well, why don't we just create an employee art gallery? And I'll curate a show every quarter. And, and we'll, you know, and we'll just have employees submit art. So we've run two shows so far. And, and they, it was great. They, they brought in the lights and we had a hallway and we put up graphics and we had openings. And, you know, the last show I was so excited cause I had almost every division.

Speaker 2: (22:40)
We had somebody from legal submit paints, uh, artists from R D submit artwork, support marketing. Like we had everybody from around the org, uh, enablements, uh, gave me photography. It was really cool. I, and so w we're really, we're working on our next show for hopefully when the office opens up in the spring. I, and I want to do like a theme of, uh, you know, COVID, COVID made art, right? Art you've made during the lockdowns as we're going into our third one, you know, right now it's a, and then hopefully by that time, these Kenyans will be finished and I'll have something to hang. Uh, but, uh, that I made during COVID,

Speaker 1: (23:21)
I think that's great. Um, one thing that if you're listening to this, one of the things that we could talk about is like you also, I think one of the things that you should try and do in 2021 is you're getting through and figuring out how you're going to do prospecting is like, go work with other departments to do stuff. There's no reason Jeremy couldn't like when COVID is done, take your wine class on the road and do it with prospects. That'd be really cool. I'd go to that. I don't know I'll call and I'd go to it like that.

Speaker 2: (23:47)
It would be cool. Uh, and maybe, you know, if we got the opportunity down the line, that would be super fun. I think the other thing that I like to do is like, you know, one of the things that I think people forget about the BDR role is that, you know, we're, we're on the forefront of messaging, right? And, and the way technology moves today, right? Lead IQ, you guys are going into another generation of another platform coming up soon, right? New tools, new toys, new functionality walk me is always changing. Right. And because we're the first point of contact for any future customer of the company, right. We need to be on the very forefront of messaging. We have to be adaptable. And so one of the things I do a lot of is I try to incorporate that into sessions with other departments. Right?

Speaker 1: (24:40)
Yeah. How do you talk about that a little bit? So, um, you guys are in the forefront of messaging, basically. I'll give you an example. Let's pretend I'm launching a new product at lead IQ. The SDRs are going to go help me find product market fit because it's a lot easier for them to do outreach and figure out what sticks and what doesn't stick. Then for me to spin up a website, make a bunch of collateral and then be wrong about it. Um, like I think that's one of the beautiful parts about prospecting. How do you develop a new message for something like, what's the process for you?

Speaker 2: (25:05)
Well, we do a couple different things. First off we pay attention. Right. And, and, and we have to be tied in, but more importantly, um, what I've started up over the last, I don't know, to think about it's, uh, we have an incredible lead for product marketing. Her name is Jordanna and she's phenomenal, and she's built an amazing team. And we started doing weekly to bi-weekly sessions with the team and her and her team. And, and we do, you know, we talk about messaging around, you know, around all the different CNO applications or we're talking about, you know, the, the work from home messaging or the workstation messaging, or, you know, and, and we're constantly kind of working at, and, and it turns out that, you know, we're contributing to each other's messaging, like we're helping each other in the process. So, you know, ramping up the 20, 21 messaging, we're gonna do a jam session next week, which I'm really looking forward to with both teams like her team and my team just to kind of jam out with the messaging is going to be like for 2021. So when she goes live with her messaging, we're already pitching it on the phone so that when we bring in a prospect, it's unified across the board, everybody's given the same messaging. How,

Speaker 1: (26:17)
What are those, have you done those meetings before Jeremy?

Speaker 2: (26:20)
Uh, this will be our first big session. We've done smaller ones that are more specific to use cases and to, to platforms. I, but this one is going to be like a big, you know, let's just jam and see what we get and see where you guys are going. And maybe we can add to it, but at least we'll be prepared or the BDRs will be prepared to start, you know, giving that messaging through our outreach, like from day one part

Speaker 1: (26:44)
Of, part of the reason that, um, so for people that don't know Erin, uh, who is Jeremy's counterpart is, um, on our customer advisory board at lead IQ. And one of the reasons that I was like pushing really hard for us to get a customer advisory board going was because we get so busy with our day-to-day stuff that it's hard for us to get insight about, like what our customers are going through, except for like random side conversations to get flagged on calls. Like, you'll go talk to someone and be like, Hey, how's it going? One of our AM's we'll talk to them and they'll say something like, Oh, click that that's really good. And then we'll bring it up in like a group meeting and it's kind of ad hoc. We're like, we should make some of this more formal official. Um, I think one thing that makes a huge difference is like, you have to offer insight, obviously when you're prospecting and having unique perspective on things you can't just buzz off features and stuff. When you do those jam sessions, like the ones you've done that are smaller, not the big group, um, how do you accept? Like, do you guys accept all ideas and then just pick something you like at the end or later

Speaker 2: (27:42)
It's more of a, it's not a, it's about sharing of the ideas, right? We're not, there's nothing finalized, it's a conversation. Right. And, and, you know, like, I'll let you know, I ask we'll, we'll pick a topic, right. Product, we'll start with what they're talking about. Right. And then we just start talking about it. Okay. And, you know, and, and I think one of the things that's changed over the last year is, is less talking about the functionality and more talking about the value. Right. And, and, and that's gotta be the messaging and, and that's, you know, it used to be the elevator pitch. Oh, what's walk me. Oh, you know, it's an application guidance system that can guide you through any process, you know, but that's not what we are anymore. Right. And, and now, like with the evolution of the platform, it's, it's all about like what kind of value we can deliver.

Speaker 2: (28:32)
Right. And, and that's where, and that's where the shift is starting to take place. And that's where the conversations start going is like, okay, so we know about the functionality and we know about, you know, about the features and stuff like that, but let's talk about the value that those features bring. Okay. And then it becomes like that kind of jam session. Well, we can talk, you know, and then it's, you know, and it's not necessarily that anything is solidified or codified out of these conversations. Right. But I, I think the goal of these, these sessions is, is to make sure that, you know, that the messaging, when we're reaching out cold, right. That we're talking about the most current kind of messaging there is. Right. And we had like the crash course in that when, when COVID hit. Right. And, and everything, you know, I, I remember we were, it was, it was a Friday afternoon.

Speaker 2: (29:22)
I, and we had, you know, there were there, might've been a couple of infections in the office. And, uh, and so, you know, we got a call and they're like, shut down the office, get everybody out immediately. Okay. And, and this is like, and, um, as I'm driving home and it starts to Dawn on me, what are the use case for walking? Oh, interesting. Okay. Like this is, you know, and, and it wasn't just me. It was everybody. Right. There's anybody that's in some messaging or understanding, like, this is going to be like, how do you outreach to people? You just sent everybody home. Right. Right. And now you've got no contact anymore. So how are you going to engage your employees at home on their software? Right. And, and literally like, like Jordanna built a deck for work from home or a business continuity planning in like a week, it was nominal like, eh, like product went into full blast.

Speaker 2: (30:17)
Corporate marketing wins a full blast. They built up all the new messaging, but right after business continuity planning messaging, which only could last for about a month, we were like, okay, we got to change it all again. Now let's talk about work from home. Right. And then we have the workstation go live, which is our newest product. And we're like, now we've got to start incorporating that. And, and so it turns out like, you know, I think what makes the BDR just, you know, so valuable. And I don't think people realize that, you know, and it's one of the challenges when you're looking at different career paths, but where's the value of the BDR is that they're incredibly adaptable. Right. They, you know, in their messaging and the way they work, they have to adapt quicker than just about any other role in the company, because we're on the front line, we're the tip of the spear. Right. And so we have to be,

Speaker 1: (31:05)
Uh, how do you guys get your messaging to scale? I'm actually working on that problem right now. That's what I'm just trying to get to. So like, my I'll give an example. If you fill out a form on [inaudible] website and you talk, we have a round Robin, like most companies, but we've talked to a rep, a rep B rep C rep D. We actually all have kind of different ways of wording things. And I'm trying to unite our messaging with the whole team. How do you guys do that? Like how do you scale it and get it? So, like, everyone's kind of using the same messaging for different people.

Speaker 2: (31:35)
I think it's, it's more about just, you know, let me, I'm going to find the right words for this one. I, I think, you know, it's about it. I guess it's about having a good team, you know, first off it's about having a good collaborative, like team collaboration in place already. Right. And that, you know, I, I nurtured again, I nurture culture. It's, it's, it's one of my favorite things about this, this world, you know, this, this high-tech world is the culture aspect of it. And, and so whether it's the culture of the company, which, you know, I participate a lot in, or it's the culture of the team, you know, I think it's really important. And, and so having a tight team culture makes it much easier to deploy messaging because everybody's on point all the time. Right. So we're like, Hey team, guys, listen, we got to start talking about this right away.

Speaker 2: (32:25)
Okay. Seniors let's work on a sequence. You guys have to be prepared, start being, let's start recording calls. Let's start listening to it in real time. And let's see how it runs. This is the new messaging. Okay. How do you guys feel about it? And it's important to have their input too, because you know, maybe something's, you know, I've got great people on my teams and, and they've got to contribute, and they're the ones on the frontline. I'm not on the frontline anymore. Right. I'm standing on the, in the background now though, Lieutenant in the back, I, I, I want their input. I want to understand, you know, how they feel, if that makes sense. Right. If we can say that to people, right. And if we can say it in less than 30 seconds,

Speaker 1: (33:07)
So Jeremy, in your role is that you that's getting that messaging out and saying, let's go run in and try it. Or is it someone in product marketing? Is it the group? Is it, I know, I know you guys are all one and it's symbiotic, but like, who's the actual person that's like, listen, BDR, SDR. I need you to do this. Like, let's try, let's test this and get this. Like, is that the, are you the one that's quite open to feedback?

Speaker 2: (33:29)
That's a really good question. I don't have an answer for, I think that there's, you know, there's enough. I don't even remember how it started, to be honest. It was just, you know, I think, you know, a lot of times, like we have got really good communication channels for the company. Right? Yeah. And, and the leadership always is very good about keeping us informed about changes, whether it's company, policy or messaging. I, and, you know, and there's lots of, you know, sessions and stuff like that to keep people on point with messaging. I, you know, and that will go out for the A's and stuff like that. There's nothing that's like BDR SDR specific, but I do believe that I it's gotta be in there in the mix somewhere. I it's, I wish I had a better answer for that one. Um, and there probably should be, I think we have enough in play that we're able to adapt quickly and, and be in communications with those teams.

Speaker 1: (34:25)
I think one thing I struggle with for people is sitting, I'm trying to this year be a little, tell people more about like what I'm going through with lead IQ and stuff. Cause this is my first time now running a marketing department at a company this size, you know what I mean? I have a counterpart, who's the head of demand gen that's helped me with a lot of this stuff, Jason, but like, I'm trying to figure out some things. I think one thing I'm struggling with is trying to figure out that balance of what we can do today, versus what I want the vision of where we're heading in the future to be, and having, I don't want SDRs and BDRs to go out and prospect a vision that doesn't exist yet. You know what I mean? That's like such a hard juggle for me is like free outweigh

Speaker 2: (35:02)
Vision doesn't exist yet. They can't prospect for it anyways. Right?

Speaker 1: (35:06)
Yeah. Well, I like, we might have a vision for where we're going with the product and what we're thinking we're doing with prospecting and the philosophies and the things that you need to do. But like, I can't have them sell something that's not ready to be sold. And that's kind of, that's kind of, their struggle is like, do I let them keep doing the same thing over and over again? Or do I intervene and try and like, get them involved in this thing and try to figure out the right balance of like what's future versus what's now

Speaker 2: (35:31)
I, well, I think that, that there needs to be that part of the conversation, right. Because at the same time guys are selling your future product already. Yeah. Right. You know, that's so it's, you know, it's same thing with, you know, walk me, we've gone through significant changes, but we've always sold the future product too. Right. That what we're becoming. Yeah. Okay. And what the abilities and the capabilities are. I, and so it needs to be mixed with the messaging and not only that they need to be prepared for when that messaging goes forward, deer, the deer SDRs BDRs. I just didn't in the habit of saying STR, okay, do your BDRs, um, sell vision or do they sell, what's usually like the value of the, the, the value that you can solve today versus the future. Like what's that balance, right. Well, I think it's more, we were really pushing value now.

Speaker 2: (36:24)
Right. Uh, and, and I think, you know, one of the most significant things that happened at the end of the year was the Forrester TEI report that went out. Right. And one of the biggest challenges of walk me just in the whole sales motion is how do you calculate the value that we're bringing? Yeah. Okay. Cause it's, you know, sometimes you just can't calculate it. Right. If we're going to go to a point on a new system. Awesome. And you know, when we can reduce the support tickets, but they didn't have support tickets to begin with, so you have nothing to base. Yeah. Except there's always, one of the challenges of walking is how do you calculate that? Well, when Forrester did it for us, right. And he did a full T a total economic impact review. Okay. And, and gave us, you know, I put a number on it and said, Oh, walk me can bring 368% ROI to your organization in three years.

Speaker 2: (37:11)
And that number will go up after the fourth year. We're like, huh. Thank you. Finally, somebody. Yeah. And, and so in that, you know, so now it's easy, easier, I should say to talk about the value, because we've got somebody that did it for us, right. That the publisher reports on, on the value, uh, in, in the past, it's been my, you know, it's all kind of, uh, look for like kinda, it's a, it's all, you know, it's just a pretty painted picture. Right. I that's it's in your mind, you know, and it's hard to like really, they kind of express that, like we know how valuable we'll watch me, can it be AIDS? It was like the problem of prospecting it in the beginning, you're looking for authority and neat, okay. Authority is easy and everybody needs walk me. And when I got my first rejection as a brand new SDR, I'm like, why Umbria building my own leads, everything qualified. No, there's nothing there. You know? And it took me about two or three months to grasp and understand why not every call is qualifiable, you know, or not everything is a quality white opportunity I buy say, you know?

Speaker 2: (38:23)
Yeah, yeah. I kinda lost my, Oh, that's okay. No, that's okay. I it's actually really helpful to hear this too. Um, so if you're listening to this, I think a takeaway is like push value. Don't talk like everyone jumps on features all the time and stuff, but like values are really important. And especially like, I think it's okay to talk about long-term or short-term value. Um, yeah, I think a super hard, challenging thing to do if you sell in a commoditized commoditized space with lots of competitors and alternatives and stuff is finding value, that's unique for your company. And it's a, it's a little different than a competitive advantage, but like finding that thing, that's like, what's that unique thing that you're only going to get working with us versus someone else that's. Uh, yes and no. Um, I, I understand what you're saying. I think it depends on how competitive your market is and it depends, it depends on where you are on the conversation, right.

Speaker 2: (39:17)
It's not, you know, you don't want to get into it competition, competition, competition conversation, and a two minute phone call. Right. That's, that's something that you kind of want to hand off to the AA to discuss. Right. Uh, it's important to know about what's out there and we were definitely getting a competitive market these days. And I know you guys have a very competitive market. Yeah. I, but I think that's, um, you know, as we're moving forward, that's a lot of the, the, the, the messaging, like you had to be featured in the beginning. Cause nobody knew what the hell we were. Right. And that's when you got to describe feature, like what do you do? Right. And, and then as you move forward, you start to talk more about value. And when the brand starts to become, you know, more established, you start to talk more about value.

Speaker 2: (40:06)
Right. I, in the beginning, like, you know, when, especially when you're like a brand new product that nobody's ever used before and they're like, well, but what is that? You know, what do you guys, so you guys walked dogs. I don't understand. Like I, and then, you know, as it starts to come more developed, you're like, well, let me just tell you about the value that we can bring. Right? You can make such a severe impact on your organization. We can save you money in so many different ways. Like the only choice you have is to come into the next call and learn more that value you guys have. Do you guys have other, um, if you don't mind, could you give another example besides ROI too? Like, cause money's one thing obviously, no, not even talking about ROI at this point in time. Right? Look, we can give your point in employees to do their jobs. Right.

Speaker 2: (40:56)
That technically is, I think [inaudible] you gonna look at, you know, the value is, you know, is the ROI, right? It's the most important thing. And I guess when I'm talking about walk me is the value that we can deliver on other applications. Okay. Because the biggest question today that you see, especially with everybody moving to the cloud is, is where, where, you know, how do you track the success of the underlying platform you've got, you know, you've got Salesforce. Okay. How do you know you're getting the full value out of that application? Forget about me for a second. Right? Forget about anything else you've got Workday. Are you getting the full value out of the business case that you guys submitted for Workday, right. Or service now, are you guys getting the value of that really complex, complete system for ITSMs? Are you getting the value out of that system and how do you even calculate that?

Speaker 1: (41:52)
How do you know?

Speaker 2: (41:54)
Right. And then that's kind of the direction that we're moving. It's not so much about the value that we bring, you know, that, that walk me can bring to, you know, reducing all, you know, support tickets and, you know, improving employee efficiency. It's more about like, how do you recognize the value that you're getting from your underlying platform?

Speaker 1: (42:11)
Think about it. Yeah. Think about it from this perspective. Another, I kind of want to send your brainstorm meeting you're doing with your big group now. Um,

Speaker 2: (42:20)
No, it's fine. I love it. It's great.

Speaker 1: (42:22)
What one potential angle UTA, and I'm sure you guys take this already is like, you could not only eliminate internal it requests and stuff on that end, but you also could increase adoption of things that you buy. How many companies buy SAS and then only have like 20 or 30% of the team uses thing that you purchased and exactly a year later you churn. And when you churn, you have to go move to a new platform, retrain the 30 or 40% of people that were using that platform on the new thing. And it ultimately, especially large organizations, you're now stacking up overhead over and over and over again. It's quicksand that's okay.

Speaker 2: (43:00)
Yeah. No, absolutely. And, and, and to make things even more challenging is because the buying centers have become so individualized. Right. And everybody's purchasing their own software. I spoke to a company in the UK 600 people. They had 31 different PDF editor.

Speaker 1: (43:19)
Oh my gosh, wait,

Speaker 2: (43:22)
I don't know, 21 different licenses. It could have been five different companies, but still right. It's and, but they don't, they've lost, you know, and that's part of the messaging. You know, the, the previous messaging was the visibility aspect, right? Is that as organizations have grown and as the CIO is not purchasing one big stack of software anymore, you know, 20 years ago, they used to go to SAP and they would buy their ERP, their CRM, their HC app, and get everybody, you know, one, one thing and the CIO would have complete visibility into what was going on with the technology

Speaker 1: (43:54)
Stack today.

Speaker 2: (43:56)
Everybody's buying their own software. Nobody knows what the hell is going on. Right. And, and you don't even, you know, in your purchasing 10,000 licenses and only using 8,000 of them,

Speaker 1: (44:06)
COVID probably made it even worse too, because you're not having those water cooler proximity conversations you used to have where like, Oh, we're, Hey, we're buying this by the way, while we're both getting coffee, I just want to let you know, you're going to have this on your desk. You guys can use this. That's not happening anymore. You have to do these up meetings and you know what, Oh, sorry.

Speaker 2: (44:24)
No, a hundred percent. And I think that's the greatest loss of this whole, you know, the work from home COVID experiment, right. Is, is the with departments that you normally don't interact with. Like, you know, I, one of the things I love about the office in Tel Aviv and, and Rafi sweary, the president's, you know, talks about this, why he chose this office to begin with, we're sitting on top of a, a religious grocery store, right. It's not like glamorous tower by the entire office is on one floor. So R and D sits with marketing, sits with finance, sits with sales. Everybody's on the same floor and everybody is hi, I'm we worked from home. Right. Oh, don't worry. It's fine. I, so everybody, okay. Hi. Say hi to Ryan. By the way,

Speaker 1: (45:22)
The audio, my daughter, we have a special cameo appearance. What's up? How's it going?

Speaker 2: (45:28)
Talk in the mic.

Speaker 1: (45:30)
Well, you got to snowball. Those are nice.

Speaker 2: (45:32)
I like it. Okay. Got it. We're almost done. Yeah. Sorry about that.

Speaker 1: (45:39)
No, that's all right. Um, you were saying you guys are all one, four and

Speaker 2: (45:43)
The floor, so it gave you the like normally, you know, in a company that's spread across multiple floors, R and D wouldn't, you'd never meet R and D from sales. Right. Or you would never meet, you know, the marketing team, you know, if you were sitting with finance, I, and that's, that's something that's so special about the Tel Aviv office, you know, and something I miss. So very much like about being in that office is just, just the inner, you know, th th the ability to even interconnect with, you know, uh, with the different teams that you would never interact with on a daily basis. And that's, that's, what's lost in the work from home. I, you know, I, yeah.

Speaker 1: (46:22)
Have you guys been able to adjust to it remotely, or you think you're still kind of struggling with that part? Cause I think we were struggling with that a little bit too. Like I can't name the LA I used to like, there'd be a, be all teams on deck, meeting downstairs in our office. And I would like scoop down, pop in and say a couple of things in pop out or like scooping pop out and just scooping and just listen.

Speaker 2: (46:42)
So, uh, you know, we've tried a variety of different things throughout the year to keep the culture running. And I think we've been pretty successful, you know, in the beginning I wanted, you know, I think one of the things that was lost when it comes to the BDR role specifically is that kind of call center, you know, atmosphere, right. The ability to listen to your colleagues, making calls, listen to their pitches and be like, Oh man, that was great. I love that. I want to do more of that, you know, or, and it drives everybody to make more calls and to get excited when there's wins. And, and that was something that was the last night. I tried really hard to at least recreate some of that. And I did, um, you know, we had a morning coffee meeting, we had an afternoon lunch, we had an evening and this is like the very first lockdown and it became too much.

Speaker 2: (47:27)
It was just too much. Right. And so, you know, over time we've streamlined the amount of meetings that we have. I look, I I'm lucky. I was really lucky. I had a space, right. Uh, you're sitting in my, my former, you know, my, my, my office formally known as my studio. I, and so I was lucky on that front and I've developed it and I like working with space a lot. Uh, and I also know when I, you know, before the lockdown, we'd go into the office one day a week. I also know I wouldn't be very productive if I was there because I want to see people and talk to people and, you know, and collaborate if I can. I, but, um, I think the teams handled it really well. You know? I mean, there's been struggles here and there for the most part though, I think the company as a whole has handled it really well.

Speaker 2: (48:12)
And I know that, you know, there's, and I don't think we'll ever go back to the same way again, I think it will be a hybrid of some sort, you know? Um, and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I also like, you know, in the long hours that we work over here, we do work very long hours. I, you know, it's, um, it's nice to be around the kids and stuff. You know, normally there are a lot of times I come home and they're already in bed. Right. Or like leave early in the morning. I don't even see them in the morning, you know, and come back in the afternoon and I'm dead or in the evening I'm out. I, so that's really nice to be around the family. I know my dog will, you know, flip by the time we're all outta here. Cat will be excited though.

Speaker 1: (48:54)
Um, so we, we're going to wrap up for a second. Do you want to plug any there? Are you guys hiring or anything? You looking for? Some people

Speaker 2: (49:00)
Hiring. I am absolutely hiring. I need, and if anybody's listening, I need English speakers and Televiv, and I need a Korean speaker in Sydney. Oh, that's cool. Uh, so if anybody's especially like Korean speaker, I don't, I've never hired a Korean speaker before. So if you're interested, please hit me up on LinkedIn, Jeremy Levine at walk. Me, definitely hiring right now. Uh, we are growing, we're scaling super exciting company, you know, unicorn status, you know, hopefully we'll see some great things on the horizon, really exciting place to be

Speaker 1: (49:34)
What I would call it. An incredible Hulk company that grew instantly, but you guys are doing great.

Speaker 2: (49:39)
It's been exciting. And it's, you know, I I'll just leave it this, I remember, I didn't really know what walk me was when I got hired. I just was so happy to get out of those horrible industries that I was in that I was just like, I'll just take anything. I don't care. And I was sitting there in the orientation and Rafi sweary was delivering his DAP message. And I was like, Oh my God, this is going to be huge. I'm so excited. I got so excited. It was the first day. It was perfect. And once I understood what I was selling, I was like, Oh wow, this is going to be fun.

Speaker 1: (50:13)
Thank you. Thank you for coming on. Uh we're. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone on my end, if you're looking to help us with messaging or you want to help me with figuring out some of this stuff that I talked about this episode pinged me on LinkedIn. I can use the advice otherwise I'm going to sign off for now. Um, thank you very much for coming on. Go check out, walk me. You remember they're hiring. And if you know anyone that speaks Korean and lives in Sydney, please hit up Jeremy. He's your help. We're hiring in the States. Two BDRs everywhere. Lots of hiring right now. Awesome. Yeah. And tell Aaron, we say Hey too. Thank you everyone for coming. Thank you for listening today. Thanks.