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B2B Tonight Transcript
Hello, everybody. Welcome to B2B Tonight. This is a huge event because this is our last show of 2020.
With me, unfortunately, is Rishi Mathur. Rishi, say hi to everyone.
What are you thinking Rishi? What's going on? Why you're looking so astute right now?
It's tough, right? I'm torn because this is our last episode and it's bittersweet because I'm sad we're
leaving but I'm also sad not to see your face anymore.
Hey, it's just for a little while. We'e going to do one-
Wait. I'e got a question. What's up with the sweater?
This? Are you kidding me?
Yeah, that sweater.
I know I'm dominating the camera with it, don't I?
You look like the Michelin man's cousin. What's up with it?
I mean, I personally think, I look like a man of success, who had sailed seven seas and accomplished a lot
in his life, helping startups gain millions.
You look like a guy who failed selling Italian tires, that's what you look like. It's terrible.
I think I look great. I think I'm channeling my Chris Evans, Knives Out look a little bit. I looked like a man
that dominates the mainstream and every one has a poster of me up in their room.
Chris Evans, the very fit, very big, Captain America type of guy, right? No. You look terrible. Change it.
My LinkedIn profile pic, I have a star spangled suit with stars in the American flag. I am Captain America
of sales. I've been trying to do that for years and the amount of time that I spend hanging out with Jim is
probably the same amount of time that Chris Evans spends going to the gym.
No. I'm not buying it.
You don't think I'm pulling out this sweater right now?
I think you stretched it out a little bit, that's it.
This sweater was imported from Ireland from my wife, hand-stiched by a farmer who literally shaved the
wool off of a sheep and then did whatever you do with wool but turn it into a sweater-
Did that farmer know who would be wearing it?
Anyways, we've got a great show today. Jason Bay, every time that we get on calls with clients and
prospects that we work with, it seems like more and more people are using him for training. He does a
lot of really great stuff and it's a big deal, actually.
Right, are you just sad because you're wearing a sweater because I don't feel the love for this Jason Bay.
I think Jason Bay needs a brighter future here. You know what it is, Ryan? It's the sweater. It's bringing
you down, man. You look like a toddler who's about to go serve some bowls of soup and spill all over
himself. I've had dinner with you. You spill. It's a terrible sweater. You look like you're wearing one of
those body defenders suit that you wear to train dogs and all those dogs go ... and they attack us with all
those padding, you look like that man with padding. You look ...
You don't think I'm pulling this off a little?
Ryan O'Hara: What's a good look for a sweater, Rishi?
I think a good look for a ... You know what, I think a good look for a sweater is it makes you look suave, it
makes you look good. It makes you look like you waited tables at a restaurant. I've known. I wear some.
I don't know what to say. I think I look like a man of success. I can't believe it.
You know what, you should look in the mirror again and rethink that but in the meantime, I think you
have a thing here. Maybe I should wear a sweater. Maybe I should show you how it's done. One second.
Let me show you how it's done. One second.
Nick, do I look bad with the sweater on? Is he right? All right, so today we have someone that I would ...
I think is award winning, right, Rishi?
More than award winning.
Yeah. I don't know if he's actually won any awards but he should get them and if he hasn't, those
contests are rigged. He definitely won one. Everyone say hi to Jason Bay.
Hey, wha'ts going on guys?
So for people that don't know, Jason does a ton of great training for people. Blissful Prospecting is talked
about by a ton of people. I always see your stuff on LinkedIn. What's the craze right now? What are you
helping people with? What are some things you've been training?
I mean, one of the big things is, it's really funny is, just this year, we've kind of started working with
bigger companies, especially software companies and companies that sell professional services and
having not really worked in that world before or worked for a company like that and did sales for them,
it's kind of funny, they have the same exact problems that a startup with 50 employees has and anytime
I talk to the sales leaders at these companies, I always ask them like one question, is there anything you
feel like your team ... like if they did this one thing better, that would be a game changer for you guys.
Every single one of them says, "We wish our team would pick up the phone more" like we deal with a
lot of call reluctance and like hands down across the board and it's ... I mean, it's for all kinds of different reasons and when you dig in with the reps, I mean, there's some people that are ... the common fearful
of rejection. There are some people that I think have never really had to ... They've never really been in
situations where they've had to ask for things and for people to say no to them. Across the board, I'd say
call reluctance, man is the number one thing, cold calling, how do we get our people to pick up the
phone, feel confident over the phone, et cetera. That's the number one thing that people always
Go ahead, Rishi. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Go for it. Go for it.
You're going to ask question, I'll ask my question after you.
All right. I will say, do you ever bang your head on your desk from all these trainings because of just like,
frustration of like, "Just pick up a call and do it."
Pick up the call, do you mean pick up the phone. Say it again, say it again, Rishi.
Pick up the phone and do it.
Part of me is like that, where it's ... we can just overthink something, there's so much that we kind of
played mental gymnastics and just kind of psych ourselves out. Guys, you do stand up comedy? Don't
ask me to tell a joke. Yeah, I'm rusty, I haven't done in a while and most of the stuff was not safe for
work. It was really perverted material.
That's like Rishi's act, except Rishi does it at work and I have to like, bring him to HR every week.
Then, the HR go in the way, "That' your boss? No, you're good."
Yeah. So I think with stand up comedy, the big thing is open mics, that's where you practice, right? It's a
lot like selling actually or prospecting, at least where a lot of the practice for cold calling is by just doing
cold calling. You can roleplay and do all this other stuff that you want but the real way to practice it is in
the moment and picking up the phone. Yeah, I don't know, it's really kind of hard to describe how scary
getting up and doing an open mic is, especially the first couple of times when ... like with comedy, if
you're not funny, people don't ... like there's no breaks. You know what I mean?
You can give a presentation and you don't really know if people aren't really resonating with it but if you
tell a joke, and no one laughs, it's kind of a humiliating experience. Yeah, so I guess there is some
frustration but I would say a lot more empathy on my part. I mean, I do understand why people have
call reluctance and to their defense, I don't think that companies really train around that or talk about.
It's just kind of like, "Hey, Ryan, here's a list dude. Get after it, man. Hit your dials, bro. Good luck and
then let me know how it goes." So like, no talk track, nothing, no training around the psychology behind
it or how to ... even manage your own mental state. Nothing like that.
One thing. So I haven't ever done stand up or open mic stuff. I'll go do presentations but I actually like
will design jokes in my presentations ahead of time.
Yeah, you're very good, dude. I watched you at the Sales Success Summit when you're out here in Austin
I forgot about that. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Yeah, we didn't get to meet. I talked to a bunch of people on your team. That's how I kind of met a
bunch of folks in your team but yeah, I mean, your talk was like, what, 40 tips and 15 minutes or
something crazy like that.
Yeah, it's insane, the amount of stuff, I put stuff in there. Yeah.
Yeah, it was a quick, it was funny. It was ... kind of all of those things but yeah, I mean, you do a great
I really appreciate that. I've actually done ... My relatability with that is I've done public speaking for
things before, like marketing talks and stuff. I once got amazing experience, my wife and I got flown to
Disney World to do a talk for a conference that was going out to people that work in marketing in the
education space. I gave a very similar talk that I do in the sales world about how to make good first
impressions when you're doing marketing. No one laughed at all. I bummed and what happened was,
we were there for four days, it's a four day conference. I was one of the opening keynote people and I
went out and talked and my wife was there.
I would say a joke that normally would land well in a sales conference. No one laughed and I'd hear her
laugh in the back because it's the first time she's seen me do public speaking and stuff. I got off the
stage, went back, grabbed her and said, "Let's just go to Disney," and we just bought park passes and
like ditched the conference-
Just got after it, yeah.
No, I was so like, embarrassed that no one laughed at the stuff that I did. Cold calling in a lot of ways is
kind of like that, right? I think one thing that people ... one thing that can make cold calling more
comfortable for people is having a plan before you actually get into the call. You can say a lot of stuff
and make a lot of content up ahead of time of what you want to do, almost like you have an account
plan, so you have that whole talk track planned out, right?
Yeah, I mean ... so where we're kind of going is like, let' kind of break down call reluctance a little bit
and kind of like what a framework might be. So I would think about ... I mean, the content and the
preparation, I think that's one part of it. I think the other part of it is ... so I've spent quite a bit of time
going to therapy actually and a lot of couples therapy and it was ... therapy is something I've always
been interested in. Just because I hear so many people say good things about it but it's also something
that ... being 31 years old, I'm kind of one of the older millennials where I was kind of like an ... not
kosher, right? It was kind of a weird thing to say that you go to therapy, my parents' generation
That's not something that you openly talk about but there's something that they talk about called
deconditioning and it's this four part kind of concept. It's actually where pattern interruption came from
so when you hear about pattern interruption in sales a lot, people are like, "Yeah, interrupt the
prospect's pattern," do all this other stuff. Well, pattern interruption is actually a process in framework
that they use to help people overcome like addiction and stuff like that. It's essentially around like how
do we identify the pattern, if you look at like ... kind of imagine like a quadrant, in the upper left you
would have identify the pattern then you would have pinpoint the trigger so what is the exact moment
in time that you encounter this and we can go through a couple of examples if you want.
Then, it's derail the pattern and then, it goes into practice and make it a habit, right? Rinse and repeat
and you kind of go through this cycle and that's a way that you can kind of like be more mindful about
what you're thinking. So, with call reluctance, if you're fearful of picking up the phone, what doesn't
work for most people is the, "Just do it anyways," because then what gets ... Go ahead.
Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I was just going to ask something but go ahead, sorry.
The, "Just do it anyways," what that can reinforce in a really bad way is if I just do it anyways and I suck
at it and I get rejected really hard, I'm like reinforcing that just do it means that it sucks more and more,
it's like this weird vicious cycle that never gets better and I'm reinforcing this fear that I have. In the
other end of it, you hear, "Oh, be positive. Tell yourself you're a badass," like all this other positive
mindset stuff that you hear that's like really popular right now, kind of Gary Vee, that kind of style.
They tell me that in group therapy a lot.
Yeah, just be positive, Rishi. We know you don't have any friends Rishi but just tell yourself that you're
Yeah, don't make eye contact with the camera Rishi. Eyes on the ground Rishi. Go ahead, yeah. I'm
The be positive stuff, that does work for some people but what I found in the trainings that I do is like
for the majority of people don't really respond to that type of like, "Oh, just do affirmations. Tell yourself
you're a badass. Be positive. Have a positive mindset." What really works better is to just like
acknowledge, so if we look at identify the pattern that's ... I experienced call reluctance, right? Pinpoint
the trigger and like literally get down to, "When I start to pick up the phone. What is the story that I tell
myself?" When I ask people this, even at big companies that sell world class products, they all say the
They're like, "I look at the prospects LinkedIn profile, they have 20 years more experience than me, like
how could I ever say anything that this person would care about or I looked at Ryan's ..."I do this a lot
to, I'll look at a VP of Sales profile and I'd be like, "Dude, Ryan looks like a super intimidating guy. He's
probably going to be an asshole to me on the phone." We tell ourselves all of these things and that's
kind of pinpointing the trigger, like really get to what is the thing that you tell yourself. What I suggest
working on and this takes a lot of practice is if you can just separate like the feeling ... this is called
diffusing, if you can separate the feeling from reality, and say those two are actually separate things,
I feel this thing, so in other words, don't push down the feeling and say, "Oh, Jason, you're an idiot.
Yo'ure being a wussy," or whatever. It's like, "No, I'm a little fearful, a little nervous to pick up the
phone. I'm a little scared of getting rejected." That's okay but let's kind of separate that from the reality
of the situation. The reality of the situation is like, what's the worst thing that will happen if I call this
person? Well, in today's day and age it's probably going to go to voicemail, right? If a person picks up,
and they're a little rude to you, which maybe happens less than 10% of the time, what will happen then?
They're probably going to forget about you in literally a day. They're probably not even going to
remember who you are and you kind of like separate the feeling from the reality, then you're kind of
working on like derailing that and I think you guys will appreciate, one of the ways that I derail, this is a
technique you can use is like kind of labeling that fear that comes in, that little voice that comes in. I give
it the Borat label. So I will literally ... like I have imposter syndrome, just like anyone else does and I tell
myself, "God. I can't believe this company would want to work with me, like they could hire someone
else in our space. Why would they want to work with me?"
I just kind of go on Borat mode. It's like ... when you look at call reluctance, for example, like I call it the
call reluctance monster. So, if it's like, Borat, I'd be like, " I am here to give you the call reluctance," like
that kind ... I literally like talk to myself in that voice and I picture Borat and it' like ... and this is a
technique they use in therapy, by the way but kind of make some light on the situation and like, I'm
making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. It makes me laugh a little bit and I have a little bit of
fun. So that was kind of a long winded explanation, I know but that's how I kind of look at call reluctance
is within that framework.
Can you have the Borat voice for the rest of the interview?
I like it a lot.
Nice, it reminds me of, I was talking to ... So one of my best friends is married to a professor at Stockton
University. Her name is Katie Yang. Hi, Katie, if you're watching, I doubt you're watching. No one
watches this. I'm so sad. Anyway, Katie ... I'm just kidding. People watch it. Katie, actually-
All of these insecurities come out.
All my insecurities. Actually, will you guys be my therapist for this, free of charge? Katie actually was
talking to me about this. She was saying that ... she's a psychology professor and one of the things she
was talking about is like, the same thing you're talking about with patterns. The way psychology works
basically, is your brain ... It's kind of like walking up a mountain, like if you're hiking up a mountain and
you go off the trail, it's really hard to walk up the mountain or hike up the mountain but if you stay on
the trail, where you're used to thinking a certain way and acting a certain way, and staying in that
pattern, it's way easier to get your thought process thinking that way.
It gets you in a spot where you end up getting stuck and it's hard to break out of habits and feelings that
you might have to branch out and do stuff. If you go off the trail and you go off the trail more and more,
it creates a new trail and gets you more comfortable in that mindset.
Yeah, I mean, there's so much to that and I mean, I don't want to go down the therapy rabbit hole,
because it gets a lot deeper than that but I think like, if there was like one on one level psychology
incorporated into all sales training, especially for how you understand yourself, I think it would make
things so much more effective because people would understand that like fear of rejection is a really
natural thing actually. This goes back to like tribe kind of days where getting rejected meant that you
wouldn't survive. That's in Google. there's tens of thousands of years of that evolution in us.
So it's like just being able to recognize that it's a normal feeling, that makes people feel a lot better, like
when I do these Zoom trainings and there's 100, 150 people in there and asked like, who experiences
call reluctance, what is the story you tell yourself, et cetera, it makes people feel really good when
literally dozens of people are like, "I'm so fearful of it. I hate it. This is what I'm thinking." It's a very
normal thing to experience.
I actually like that we're talking about ... Go ahead Rishi, sorry.
I'll just say people do a lot of stand up comedy. The fear of rejection goes away, because you get
rejected so often and so quickly. Actually, I had a quick question, though. I've heard in the past, and I
think Ryan has also said this to me, which is like when you're leaving a voicemail, you always put your
name at the end of it and that way, when people usually read voicemails these days, if they hear your
name or they see your name right away, they can click out. So therefore, if you leave your voicemail
name at the end, it's better. Do you agree with that or would you have a better approach to leaving
voicemails out of curiosity?
Yeah, I agree with that, 100%. I think it's really stupid to actually put your name and your company name
at the top, because people can make a quick judgment like this and it's not like a cold call, where you
have the ability to even talk to them. So yeah, I'm a huge fan of that. The other thing I'm a huge fan of
with voicemail is using it as a way to point a prospect to another place.
Yes. I love that you said that.
Yeah, so like when people ... That's another complaint that I hear. They're like, "I don't leave voicemails,
because people don't call me back." Well, that doesn't mean that they're not working. You still send
emails and people don't respond to all of your emails but there's a reason why it takes you know, five,
six, seven, eight emails to get a response from people. All of the other stuff that you're sending is
creating that awareness and the example I always like to use, and you guys are marketing people, right?
I mean, for the longest time, the rule with marketing was a rule of seven. People have to see your stuff
seven, eight, it's probably 10 plus times now, in order to like really convert and take action.
Well, the most popular brands in the world, the Googles, the Nikes, et cetera, people have to see their
ads multiple times to take action on it. So, the company you're prospecting for is probably not a Nike. It
probably doesn't have that kind of brand awareness. So if they have to do it, you have to do it too. So, I
think it's the multiple touch, the voicemail to your point, Rishi like point back to something else. Say, hey
and we're about to send you an email and the subject line is, "Hey, Jason just left a voicemail. It' going
to have a case study in it with how this company solved this problem, or here's a piece of content to
solve this problem," whatever it may be. I'm going to point them to the email that I'm going to send
Is it weird if I say, "Hey, I'll be at your door in five minutes?"
Yeah, that would be-
It is because you say that to me Rishi.
Yeah, that would be a little creepy and then what, you take a picture of yourself and throw it into the
email in front of their house. You're like, "Yeah, what's up, dude?" Yeah, that would be a little creepy,
just a little bit.
Just making sure.
So we talked a little bit about rejection. We talked about leaving voicemails. I think one thing ... I like
talking about the psychology of this actually. I think it's a good point. If you're listening to this and you're
like, "Ah, man, I'm trying to get my reps to call people more and stuff." I think the other thing that it can
do is people approach the phone like we were doing sales 20 years ago because back 20 years ago, you
had way less information about people online. You had their name, their company, their title. It's
actually not really enough to go after someone anymore. Especially if you're selling to marketing, where
people are really active online and stuff or sales or any of those tech spaces.
The service space is also full of a lot of that too, especially with decision makers because they're
required to do stuff online. They're in press releases. They're in news stories about the companies.
You're selling to the enterprise and it's a real decision maker that's a little higher up. There's probably
lots of information that you can find out about the person. I think it's a really important point you're
bringing up, is like, it doesn't have to feel like a cold call anymore. You can kind of warm it up, right?
Absolutely and dude, there;s so much controversy on like, "is it a cold call or is it not a cold call?" Dude,
can we use profanity on your show because-
Yeah, it is a fucking cold call. If you call someone and they're not expecting it, like that's a cold call. It
doesn't matter how many emails you've sent them. It doesn't matter if they opted in to receive
something, if they didn't sign up for a demo or to do an intro call with you. So it's a cold call. We can
warm up our cold calls and this is actually a really big topic, I think that ... like when we look at call
reluctance, we talked about the psychology behind it. I think knowing what to say, like having a
framework for how you do a cold call is one thing and then, the other kind of third of that bucket is like
having something to say that the person would actually care about.
So outside of your talk track and your value props and like all that other stuff, how do you find
something that people actually care about and one of the things that I think we do too much of is we
focus too much on problems when we're prospecting and I think it depends on what you sell but most of
us are not selling something that's fixing a hair on fire problem, that a lot of people have. When you're
not selling something that's fixing a hair on fire problem, that everyone knows that they have really
maybe two or 3% of the people you';re reaching out to are even experiencing the problem that you can
help with, so you're going to miss like 97% of the time.
When you think about it, I mean, think about all the big purchases that you guys have made just at Lead
IQ in terms of software vendors, et cetera. Did a huge pain point internally prompt you to take the
meeting with the person? I mean, maybe some of the time but I think some of the other time, it might
have been like this person seems like they really know what they're doing. I'll give you an example. We
have a new accountant now after COVID because our previous accountant, I never thought we would
work with someone else. They didn't really give us any information on what we should be doing with
PPP or COVID. They had nothing to share with us and then bench.co was putting out all this content,
these webinars all this other stuff.
We hopped on a webinar and then hopped on a sales call with them afterwards, done deal, like that and
it had nothing to do with how easy they were to work with or our pain point that we had. We didn't
really have any pain. We'e like, we were exposed to a better way of doing things and-
Ryan O'Hara: By the way, I just want to interrupt people, people watching this, hi. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm
just trying to say something but anyway, bench.co, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I'm a jerk. I
shouldn't have done that. That joke missed.
No, it's all good.
Don't judge me. Don't judge me, Rishi. Go ahead talk to the undercover microphone there, Rishi.
There's no microphone here. This is flowers.
All right, go ahead Jason. Sorry.
One of the things that I've been really thinking about is, we can have an email or a cold call, a message
where we talk about problems but I think what is actually more important is finding some sort of
commonalities and what that prospect values and what you value. What I mean by that is, there's like
three areas that you can look forward to figure out what a company or a person really values. One of
them is their accomplishments, so what do they brag about, right? What do they openly brag about,
awards they've won, clients that they've landed, portfolio, case studies, et cetera. The other one is like
thinking about what they create in terms of content, what do they educate their audience about? That's
another really big one.
Lastly, what do they spend money on? Are they hiring, what kind of tools are they using, et cetera?
That'll actually give you a pretty good picture of like, what a company values or what a person values
and then, you can connect what you value with that. For example, I'll give you a quick example. I'm
working with a company that sells essentially outsourced customer support. So when a consumer based
brand, especially around the holidays needs to level up their customer support because there's a lot of
intake in volume, it's really like a hard process to do that internally because they have to like hire more
people or do chatbots or whatever, right?
So this company essentially will come in and say, "Hey, we can like offset and handle some of that
overload." What they look for is a commonality and like, does this company care about providing really
good customer service? When they go on the website, what they're looking for is like, what do they brag
about? Okay, they brag about how awesome their product is and there's video testimonies, et cetera
and then what's missing on the site? They don't have 24/7 customer support. You know what, if they
care a lot about serving their customers well and getting back to them quickly and they don't have 24/7
support, that's where we can come in and help them provide 24/7 coverage to keep doing the awesome
work that they're doing.
That works so much better than saying, "Hey, you have a problem. You're not providing 24/7 support
and here's what's happening right now, because of that." If it was just that, it wasn't hooked into like,
what this company cares about, I just find that people don't ... they're less inclined to take a meeting
because they're like, "We're already taking care of this."
So one thing that I think is actually a good theme here too, is a lot of the time the people that are
watching this are cold calling people that are already is a competitor, right? So, if they're already cold
calling a competitor or have a scenario like that, what you're selling, they probably have that box
checked off of a need, what do you do in that scenario?
Yeah, so I mean, we can talk about essentially how to objection handle. When someone says, "Hey, I'm
already actually using a solution." So one thing I suggest doing for selling software, that's a pretty cool
little hack is go on to software review sites like G2.com and you can look and see what people really,
really like about your competitor's solutions and what they really don't like. So look at like the four and
five star reviews and then, look at the two and one star reviews. Then, what you can say something like
this. "Yeah. Hey, Ryan, actually, I did some research. I was actually kind of aware that you were already
using a solution."
"So I totally understand if now might not be the best time about ... to talk about using another solution
but while I have you I'm curious, just because I've done some research and solution A, what I find is that
a lot of the people that use that product really like this and they don't really like some of this other stuff.
What has your experience been?"
That's really good. I kind of want to do roleplay a little bit actually in this.
You want to try it a little bit? Rishi, you want to do this?
Yeah, let's do it. I'm in.
So, in this scenario, let's have Jason ... Rishi, do you want to be the guy on the phone?
All right, here's what we're going to do for our situation, Jason is selling Lead IQ. Rishi, you're someone
that uses a competitor, make a fake competitor up or something and let's see how Jason handles the
objection. Is that cool with everyone? Are you going to put the phone up to your own given character?
Hello. I've been on the call for like three minutes.
Hey, Rishi, this is Jason with Lead IQ. Hey, I know, I probably catch you in the middle of something but
do you have a minute I can tell you why I'm calling and you can let me know if you want to keep
Lead IQ. Yeah, yeah, you guys are competitors of Bloom Blimfo, that's where I'm going with?
Yeah, definitely. Well, the reason I was calling is I was actually doing a little bit of research. I noticed
obviously your VP of sales at ABC company and looks like you guys were doing a bunch of hiring on your
BDR and SDR team right now, and one of the things that we typically find, with BDRs and SDRs is they
spend a lot of time in Salesforce, using the tools, bouncing around, that sort of thing and one of the
ways that working with sales teams like yours is helping them kind of reduce the clutter in the workflow
so that they can do what you want them to do more, right? More phone calls, more emails, et cetera
but I know I'm catching you in the middle of your day here. Do you have like a minute, I could ask you
like maybe two or three questions to see if this would be relevant for you?
I don't know. See, here' the thing. Can you 10X my revenue as these other companies have told me?
That's a really great question. I don't know what your revenue is. It'd be really hard for me to say that I
could 10X your revenue, so that wouldn't be something I feel comfortable promising but I'm really
curious like what kind of tools are you guys using right now for your data?
Yeah, we're using a bunch of tools. Let's just say I need some tools. Let's move on.
Damn it, Rishi. You're ruining the roleplay? Rishi, let's say, yeah, we actually use Bloom Info. We've been
using them for about five months where we're in an annual contract with them.
Okay. Yeah. So we're using Bloom Blimfo and we've been in annual contract with them for a while, so
that's basically the data providers we're using.
No, got it, man. It sounds like you guys are taken care of and Lead IQ being a ... I'm calling to kind of talk
about the workflow and that sort of thing and sounds like this is something that you sort of have, some
tools and stuff in place for but I'm really curious, because I'm very aware of that solution by the way. A
lot of our customers actually use that solution and ours and I'm curious what your thoughts are, if you
don't mind me asking. What I hear is a lot of people at ZoomInfo tend to like ... the quality of the data
tends to be pretty good but one of the things that I hear that people sometimes hate is how it doesn't
really integrate with the rep's workflow.
It takes a bunch of time for them to actually get the emails and phone numbers when they'd rather
would just be able to get that on the spot and use it right away versus waiting a day or two to get it from
their marketing team. What has your experience been? Are you hearing anything like that from your
Yeah, all the time. I don't know what ZoomInfo is but at Bloom Blinfo, we have that problem. It's like
Yeah, definitely. Well, hey. I'm glad I called then. Do you want to keep going or-
Yeah, that would be great. By the way, do you have a shiny head? I only deal with people with shiny
The hell, Rishi.
No, I like the way you handle that, Jason. If you're a rep, and you're using something that's like really
commoditized, where you might not necessarily need more than one thing, the other thing is sales
processes can take a couple months, right? Not everybody closes something in like a month, it takes it a
Yeah. No, absolutely.
I don't think it's a bad idea. Another thing that we suggest is if you get on the call with someone, and
they're in a contract with someone else, make contact with them. Ask them if they want to make some content or do something on social because like, they probably have a lot of cool wisdom and a lot of
people that you're probably also prospecting, they probably know. There's a ton of overlap in the space
on those things. What if you're in the service space? So, like you were talking that you've been doing
some training with companies in the service space, as opposed to a product, do you typically find the
clients that you're training? Are they already using other service providers when these people ... like
let's say, it's an agency or an SEO firm or something, are they already using someone or are they
typically going in as the new person, the incumbent?
Yeah, I mean, if it's an agency or something, almost everyone is either doing it internally or they already
have an agency. So, with most professional services, it's CPAs, stuff like ... people are already going to
have someone in place doing that.
Yeah. So how do you deal with that? Let's pretend ... let's go through the scenario of that. Is it basically
... I'll give you an examples of something I like doing. Actually, I can do a ... do you want me to do a
Yeah, do it, please.
Okay, ready? Now, I'm going to do the roleplay and Jason, you yell at me and coach me and make me
All right. Are you ready? Ring, ring. Rishi, you're the guy.
Hi, Rishi. I'm just trying to hear from Lead IQ. How's it going? I'm sorry. I'm not from Lead IQ. I need to
be from an agency.
You're from Creation Agency. Wow.
Yeah, we could say that. Hi, I'm Ryan from Acme. We're a service agency. Do you have a couple seconds
I don't know. I'm kind of in a rush right now. What's this about?
Yeah, I know you're in a hurry. Honestly, I was looking at some information and reading some stuff
about some of the job postings you guys have online. I noticed you have like three hires going out there
for SEO stuff. We actually might be able to help you with getting your SEO stuff indexed faster and
increase your organic traffic. What would happen if your traffic increased?
I would probably get more sales, more inbound leads. That would be great.
Are you guys using anything right now? Do you have anyone working on SEO? Are you outsourcing or
what are you doing right now?
We're using SEO Incorporated.
SEO Incorporated. I actually haven't heard of them before. How do you guys like them?
They are the best.
So, kind of a weird question for you, I know we're talking on the phone and you only have a couple
seconds, if I'm wearing a vest and I was painted blue and you had a magic lamp, and I came out of it and
said you could change three things about SEO right now, what would you do, what would you change?
Yeah, I would want more footprint on the internet, especially on Google when people search stuff or any
keyword, I wanted to show up. The second thing I would like for as far as my SEO goes, is to have more
drive towards my website. I guess that goes into just more footprint outside there. I want more people
to know about us and be aware about us.
So, is SEO Inc. not doing that? Is that why you have to use one of your wishes on that or do you feel like
you're ... because you only get three wishes, right, I mean, in this scenario?
Yeah, I mean, they're doing an okay job.
I know, you're really busy. Maybe if you don't mind, we could scheme through some SEO strategies and
stuff with you sometime and compare to see how it's going with what you're doing with SEO Inc. Would
you be free next week maybe?
Maybe. A question. A lot of people keep saying the same thing. How do I know you guys are actually
going to come through?
Yeah, so there are a lot of people that work with all these different SEO firms. You probably hear all
these different promises and stuff. They'e going to change your life and all that. We have a customer,
it's very similar, it reminds me ... Do you guys know Doobly Doop Inc. They're kind of similar to you guys,
Dude. They are competitors. How dare you, sir?
I know. The cool part though, is we did a lot of stuff to help them rank in areas that you're not ranking in
right now and I think there's a huge opportunity there. We could talk about it more next week, maybe I
can give you more of a formal rundown of everything, would that sound good?
Yeah, that sounds great but by the way, did you create the jingle for Bibly Doop because that's stuck in
my head and that's what really got that.
I wish I did but I can tell you we made them come up on like 10 first page search results on Google,
which had a huge impact on revenue for they increased their meetings by like 20%. It was crazy.
Anyway, I can tell you the story more next week. How's Thursday at three?
Yeah, it sounds good. Let's do it.
All right, Jason, break that down. Give me some crap.
No, I like ... I mean, obviously you've been doing this for a while, man. So love the tone, love the speed,
love how you introduced yourself, all that good stuff. The only thing I have is like, I'm wondering if
there's maybe a different angle that you could take around like ... what I'm wondering is why are they
hiring people right now?
If they're hiring people right now, and they already have an agency, what are they looking to get from
that? The other thing is like, I'm wondering how that ... we don't know what the person's role was in this
case but I'm also wondering, how is this connected to something that's bigger than the hiring?
So it's like if they're selling a product, this is where you can kind of start talking about like, "Oh, hey, and
by the way, I noticed that you just launched some new products. I'm guessing part of this plan has to do
with getting them to rank better. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you noticed, when I Googled some product
categories like this, I noticed that you're being outranked by your competitors. Does that something that
you're getting help with from your current agency on?"That might have been like where we go.
Damn, that's good.
That's really hard to do. That's really hard to do on a roleplay, that when you don't have that context,
but that's what I would be looking for as ... in the marketing stuff, I think is the easiest of all the
professional services, because you can see everything.
It's tied to revenue directly. I just was picking something that's really common because I get pitched SEO
stuff like, every day, you know what I mean?
If you can find something that they are doing and then connect that back to those values that we talked
about, how is it connected to what they brag about, how is it connected to what they educate their
people about and then how is it connected to what they're spending money on? Typically, you can find a
connection. If they're selling services or products, like what are the bigger things going on in the
company and this person's role with the SEO is to help drive traffic to those things and you can draw on,
"Well, here's what's going on, that I noticed could be some improvement."; You can make the
conversation about something bigger related to their job outside of the hiring or the day to day kind of
things that the agency is doing for them.
I've got a question about sticking to the script. How do you help these reps who are going on these calls,
like jump outside and be more natural on the call and not stick to a script that they're given? You know
what I'm saying, because a lot of like reps even want to say, "Yes, we're just stuck to the script," and
going outside of it sometimes made us freak out a little bit, so how do you train these reps into
understanding like, this is how you can go out the script and decide to deviate without like, having your
brain freaked out?
Yeah, I call it thinking outside the script. So, when I look at the cold call, there's like three kind of
components to it. I look at intro, hook, close. If you kind of look at it as a timeline like that's the
framework. So with the intro, you're doing exactly what Ryan did there or what I did, you're just trying
to buy time, right? So that's ... I want to remove the surprise. I'm going to introduce myself. So, my
name and my company and then I want to do some sort of permission based opener. There's all like
different flavors of permission based openers but I want some sort of permission based element or I
don't just start blabbing.
As soon as they pick up the phone and talking about my stuff. The next thing that I want to do is like
really give them ... once they give me some permission, this is where our reply method comes in but this
is kind of your value prop that you want to share, right? I'm usually going to lead with what I found,
personalization, you can have some sort of empathy, so here's what I think people like you were focused
on or here's what it seems like you value or here's a problem that I noticed and then, I want to go into
relevant results. Here's how we're helping companies like yours with that. Then, I do another pause
there, "Is it cool if I ask you two or three questions, see if this might be relevant for you?"
Then, I go into that middle part of the call, the hook, that's the question stack and this is where the calls
more freeform. So I want to have two or three questions prepared in advance or something like what
Ryan did, there where, I kind of want to come in with a couple of easy questions. Like if I'm Lead IQ, I
want to ask them what kind of tool they're using, right? That's a really simple answer. I want to ask them
maybe, "Hey, I noticed that looks like you have about a couple dozen SDRs, like are your SDRs doing
their own prospecting or excuse me, are your AEs doing their own prospecting or the SDR is filling?"
I'm going to ask some couple easy questions and I'm going to ask some more problem oriented
questions or question stack, I call it or I'm going to give some context into those questions, and then ask
the question or really get a conversation started. So to kind of get back to what you said, Rishi, I think
you should have a really good framework and structure for how you want to approach the call that
allows you to deviate outside of that and then, get back ... no different than a sales call, you can go all
off, all over the place but you can always come back to that trail, right, as you're progressing up the
mountain, you can go ... if you're thirsty, you can go to the stream off to the side, get some water,
whatever you need to do, but then you get back to the main trail. So I would have that structure in
Hey, Jason, let me ask you something, let's pretend that on the call I did with Rishi, I had the magic lamp
question and he actually said, "Look, I don't have time for this right now. "Do you just bail out or what
do you try to do there?
So, I have another framework for objection handling to. It's called EVO. So the framework is empathize,
validate, and then offer. So the mistake that most people make when they're objection handling is they
go straight to the offer. "Oh, you don't have time right now? Well, hey, perfect. Well, all I need is 30
seconds, we can get you some time on your calendar or perfect, how about I send you a calendar invite,
we can meet five minutes tomorrow at a time that works for you," right? Those are the like the canned
rebuttals that reps are taught and then what happens, most of those people don't show up to the
So they empathize and validate piece is like let's acknowledge the person real quick, so if someone's like,
"Hey, I got to take off. "It's like, "Hey, totally understandable. You know, I'm cold calling me out of the
blue here. So I totally get, you probably had something better going on when I called you but hey, would
it hurt, would it be a bad idea to go for a no oriented, kind of Chris Foss style question? Hey, would it be
a bad idea if I took a minute here and just ask you one or two questions, and then you could see if this is
even relevant for you and if you even want to talk again, does that sound fair? Cool." Then, you can go
into your questions and if they give you resistance again there, you probably just let it go.
Would it be a bad idea is really cool. I didn';t do it that much because I was in the hotbox for the roleplay
but I also think that when you're using your voice over phone, don't be afraid to have a little bit more
personality too on this stuff, like I was just trying to think about what I was going to say because I didn't
know I was going to be doing this. If you're prepping for a call and you have a couple things you think
you have in common with the prospect, you could also bring those things up. I've tried to make a joke
about being painted blue and being a genie but I probably would have said that a little differently if I was
in the situation that I was in too.
So I think it's okay to do that. The other thing that I like to tell people is, if they're like, well just send me
more info over email and you're like, what kind of info would be useful and they don't actually answer
you on that. Hype up the touch you're going to be doing. So be like ... instead of being like, "All right, I'll
send you more info," be like, I'm going to send you an email, it's going to be the greatest email you've
ever seen and then, you hype it up and when you actually write the email, make it really creative and
fun and cool. The thing is, the people that are decision makers in these companies, they're extraordinary
people. That's how they got in that position and they deserve extraordinary outreach, if you're going to
be following up with them afterward.
Yeah, no, absolutely, man. I think just having a little bit of personality, like you said, can go a long way to
kind of just break the pattern, that we've been talking about, towards like, dude, you're really just trying
to have a conversation and if you go in ... this kind of ties back to call reluctance too. Don't go into the
cold call, wanting a meeting with that person, like you don't even know if they would be worth your
time to meet with either. Go in with the intention of starting a conversation, and lead with some
curiosity, it's like ... the tone should sound a lot like, "Hey, I was doing this research, and I found these
things and I';m wondering if you're running across this thing that a lot of people like you are running
across right now."
That's kind of the tone that you're looking for and you don't need anything from the person.
It's almost like you're a journalist, like trying to investigate something a little bit or a detective or
Jason, how long do you take time spending researching every prospect you're going after?
Yeah, that question requires a lot of context. I think if you're selling enterprise stuff, a good rule of
thumb that you might use, if you're selling into enterprise is the time that I take the research in account
and find half a dozen people, I'm going to reach out to and write the message that might take an hour to
do for each account, if you're selling enterprise deals. If something's a little bit more transactional, like
you're 10 to $20,000 range, that kind of thing, you might not make sense to spend more than five
minutes researching someone and firing off your email or researching the account in that amount of
time too and then, there's everywhere in between.
So it kind of depends on what you're selling and the thing that I would identify first is like, I would do an
activity where you look at what's my revenue goal for the month, and then do the math backwards. How
many demos does that need to be? How many opportunities that create? How many intro calls? How
many prospects do I need to reach out to with my conversion rate, and kind of get that number per
month so that you can break it down per week and then break it down per day and that'll help you kind
of schedule time block, your time on a calendar. I find that most people haven't done that exercise. They
have no idea how much activity is needed for them to actually hit their revenue target.
We've been kind of talking about this internally with some of the sales teams that we've been closing. If
you're selling into the enterprise, I think the other thing you need to do is have an account plan, where
you're going to be doing account based prospecting, make a plan for what you're going to say for each
role at the company and that arms you with better information that you can say so you feel prepared,
Yup, no, absolutely. If you're reaching out to a lot of these same people, I mean, the framework is going
to be very similar. You just need to kind of customize it a little bit for that company. That's where the
app scale, the personalization app scale, that's where the scale part comes from. It's from the
repeatability, it's not from the automation of the personalization. You guys do a wonderful job of this at
Lead IQ. You guys are doing the exact thing that we're talking about.
Cool, thank you. I'm sure that me and Rishi probably aren't doing it enough though, we need to get our
teeth a little bit more synced into prospecting and stuff. I'm actually ... Rishi and I are talking about
doing something where we're going to have him be a prospector for a couple weeks and watch what he
We've been talking about this for seven years. I have never been-
We're going to do it in June and then it got postponed because we had a big product launch thing that
we had to do, but we'll do it at some point. Jason, we talked about like an account plan, how do you
coach people on that? How do you make a good account plan? What's that look like?
Yeah, account planning is ... this is something with the companies I work at. It's like every company
seems to kind of do it differently. What I would think about is a couple things. I like to retrace steps that
you've done in the past. So no different than deal reviews that people do. You can do a prospecting
review too. So look at like all your big accounts you've land in the last six months and like reverse
engineer, who did I talk to? What was their role? Who was the first person I met with? Who was my
champion, et cetera. So like, what I would look at is ... like once you have the company nailed down that
you want to reach out to, on a persona level, I would keep it really simple and look at three areas.
Who are the typical champions in this? Who are the decision makers and the people we need to get sign
off from and who influences the decision? The influencer is typically the one I see being ignored. For me,
if I'm selling prospecting training, people that might influence that decision are like people in marketing
roles. They might not be managing the BDRs. They're not going to be helping but they care a lot about
the leads being generated at that company and that becomes a lead source for them. So really thinking
about those three things and then, I try to keep it really simple. Pick one or two people in each of those
categories, depending on how big your company is and then from there, you should already have like
messaging that you would normally use for each of those roles.
Then there's a lot of different ways that you can go about it but one that I'm really a big fan of is like
each week, you focus on a specific types of personas. So maybe it's your sales persona one week and
then you get all the messaging and stuff and your sequence has started. Week two, you work on your
marketing personas, get the sequences ready, get it started and then, now, you can like really kind of
focus your time and energy and get into a little bit of a rhythm but I try not to complicate it much more
than that. I'm only touching the prospecting side of things. So I'm not talking account planning on the
sales end or anything like that.
How do you create movement with the influencer out of curiosity?
How do we create movement with the influencer? So what's in it for them is what I'm thinking? What is
in it for them?
Yeah, do you say that in a value prop, do you actually drive action? An influencer, for example, let's say
at Lead IQ, the people that usually purchase are VPs of sales, maybe someone in sales operations but we
can get influence from like an SDR or an SDR manager or an account executive that tries us and self sign
up and loves it or something. How do you take that and create movement? Hopefully everyone catches
up that we're getting free consulting from Jason, thanks by the way, but it could be a different industry
too, if you don't want to use us, but like, how do you actually take that individual person that has a lot of
influence and can help you like, how do you take that and drive it toward action?
Yeah, good question. So this happens a lot with us actually, because with a lot of reps, follow our
content and then they comment on stuff and I see that and I'm like, "Oh, that's a company I want to
work with." So I actually just pick up the phone and call those people and what I do ... like when I call a
BDRs, I want to figure out a little bit more about what the ground level challenges are with prospecting.
So if it' Lead IQ or a software, it's like, "Hey, the people using this, what do they like, don't like? What
solution are they using et cetera," and then, I can have like a really informal call with them for five or 10
minutes and then, I don't ask them. I think this is a key. I don't want them to introduce me to their boss
because most of the time when that happens, they explain what I do in a really poor way.
They say, "Hey, I talked to this guy, Jason. He's just prospecting training, you should talk to him and then
the person's boss is thinking, we already do prospecting. We're good. Everyone is making calls." Now,
that's very different than if I reached out to you, Ryan because I talk to Rishi and I'm like, "Hey, I talked
to Rishi and one thing that he mentioned is that you guys are really focused on personalization at scale
right now, but it takes a really, really long time for you to research accounts and execute that." One
thing that he's worried about is he' not going to hit his numbers because it's taking so long for him to
make the calls and send the emails.
I had some ideas I want to share with you and how other SaaS companies we're working with are doing
personalization at scale in a way that is really efficient so they can hit their numbers, open to having a
chat. That, right there, if I can show that VP that I've done that research ... I've talked to several people
about this on podcast but like when I meet with a VP of sales, dude, they don't want to spend time
doing a lot of discovery with me, man. They're kind of expecting me to come in and kind of know the
landscape of how things work at their company. I'm not going to ask them questions like so you guys are
cold calling right now?
Yeah, how do you guys do your intros? What are you saying? Were you guys getting hung up or like, I
don't know. I know that we're not hitting our revenue targets right now but I'm kind of expecting you to
come in and knowing what we're having challenges with and how that fits in. That's the approach that I
recommend. This kind of bottoms up approach. Use them as a way to get what I call insider info and ask
if you can mention their name when you reach out to the person above them.
If they say no, you could still anonymize it, right?
Yeah, absolutely. I talked to a few reps on your team and like, here's the kind of the consensus of what
I'm smiling because I just keep thinking of like journalists saying like, according to several sources ... You
like have a notebook, you're like needing it. No, it's really smart, actually. Rishi, we're kind of getting
near the sunset of this conversation. It's making me sad.
I know. Jason, why are you leaving us? Stay.
Jason. What is this? You should resign at your company and just come hang on to Zoom with us forever?
To be honest, you are the company so just let it go. Come here. Hang out with us?
It's a good point.
Well, I don't really like Nick that much. That's why I need to take off.
That's why he's not here. Nick, get off this.
For people watching, Nick is our editor that is like quietly lurking in the background here. He's been just
saying really creepy things into our ears while we're recording this like, Nick, it's really uncomfortable.
Can you stop that, please?
Jason, do you want to plug anything? We're kind of getting near the end here, what's cooking for you
guys this upcoming 2021 as we wrap up the end of the year?
Sure. Well, most of what we're working on, you can find at our website at blissfulprospecting.com but
typically, where people get hung out is with messaging and like the number one challenge that I hear is
like it takes forever to write an email because people do it from scratch. Every time they write it, even
companies that are using Outreach or SalesLoft or insert whatever other sales engagement platform,
oftentimes, there isn't like streamlined templates for them that they really like working with. So there's
a guide on our website called the Reply Method that I checked out. It's ungated and it essentially got
that structure for how to approach like a good sound message that is really prospect oriented versus me
So something you can use in your emails, your cold calls, et cetera. So I'd check that out at
blissfulprospecting.com. That's a big thing and then hopefully, what we're going to be doing this next
year is I'm starting a project. I'm not quite sure what it's going to be called yet but it's going to be
essentially like a greatest hits book, from like all of the best like prospecting advice out there, combined
with our frameworks, combined with some psychology and that sort of stuff. So I want to start that
project next year. Yeah, check out our website and get signed up first off. We got a ton of free content
So Jason Bay, go look for him on LinkedIn. Thank you everyone else for coming on, except Rishi. Jason,
thank you, you've been great. If you are feeling discouraged or sad about doing cold calling or you feel
like you don't have it, talk to us. We can jam around some ideas with you. The whole idea here is just, I
think a good rule of thumb that Jason kind of talked about too, is just think about what you would want
to do if you';re getting cold called. That's a really easy way to kind of feel a little bit more confident, like
what I want to hear. If you call someone and you're flattering them and talking about stuff that's about
them and showing that you really care about them, no matter what, they're going to be huge jerks, if
they're a jerk to you, if you do that still.
Don't even sweat, it's fine. I think this stuff you gave today Jason was awesome. Thank you for
participating, being in the hotbox. Everyone else, thanks for listening. Godspeed.
Hotseat. Thank you.
Get out of here, Rishi.