Skip to main content

Episode 4: Kasey Jones

B2B Tonight Transcript 

Ryan O'Hara:

Why, hello everybody.

Rishi Mathur:

What happened to your voice?

Ryan O'Hara:

That's how you get people to leave [inaudible 00:00:09]. Why, hello everybody. There used to be this weather guy in New Hampshire on a local channel called WIDS and his name was Al Kaprielian, and that's how he used to do the weathe.r he'd be like, "Why, hello everybody. It's going to rain today," and he used to talk with this really terrible... it almost sounded like he was clown without wearing clown makeup. That's what his voice sounded like. I'm being mean to him a little bit, but he actually is a huge jerk. My dad, when my parents first got divorced, lived in the same apartment complex that he did and I saw him over in the complex. It was like a condo development. It had a community pool that everyone shared and my dad and I went swimming, and Al Karielian was there, he was like, "Hey, do you have a pool pass?" And I was said, "No, my dad just moved here. We still haven't got it," and he's like, "Then you need to leave," and he was a complete jerk to me.

Rishi Mathur:

Wow.

Ryan O'Hara:

Not like-

Rishi Mathur:

So, he was [inaudible 00:01:00] clown that was just a jerk.

Ryan O'Hara:

He bigshotted me. He bigshotted me a little bit, but it's okay. He's been doomed AM radio. So, hi everyone, I guess we'll go back to the show here. We are really excited for today's episode at B2B tonight. I've known our guest tonight for a long time. Rishi, you did an interview with her a long time ago, right?

Rishi Mathur:

I did a game show interview with her.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. She was great on that. If you don't know how Kasey Jones is, hang out. She's great. She knows all this cool stuff. There's going to be things for STRs, leaders, C-Sweep. There might even be a few tears, a few laughs. I don't know what's going to happen but you should definitely hang out. Before we start that though, Rishi and I have been working on something. This is maybe... I'm really being vulnerable here. The whole thing with this episode's about being vulnerable I think a little bit, but I don't know if people know this but I love making music. That's why I have a keytar behind me. If I pan my camera over, which I'm not going to because my video will yell at me, I have a piano over here. I like making music and stuff but I've always been too much of a wuss to do it for a job. So, Rishi and I had this idea, I don't know if people know this but Broadway's been shut down, right Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:

Yes, it has.

Ryan O'Hara:

One of the things that makes me really sad about Broadway being shut down is LeadIQ was definitely going to invest some money into making a Broadway show and now I can't do it, right Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:

We cannot. Not right now.

Ryan O'Hara:

But-

Rishi Mathur:

But we will.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. So, rather than have the Broadway show and have our dreams be crushed, we thought we would do something a little different for a bit. It's taken a lot of effort. Rishi burned a lot of calories preparing for this role, but we're going to present you with this. This is Sales: The Musical.

Ryan O'Hara:

(singing)

Ryan O'Hara:

In a world of scripted calls and template emails, two men forge an unlikely alliance in the face of adversity to create a bond that transcends business propositions.

Ryan O'Hara:

(singing)

Ryan O'Hara:

This summer, come see the musical STR's are calling revolutionary, sensational, and the next big thing in the world of marketing strategy.

Rishi Mathur:

(singing)

Ryan O'Hara:

From the brilliant minds of Ryan O-Hara and Rishi Mathur comes Sales: The Musical.

Rishi Mathur:

(singing)

Rishi Mathur:

Wow, that was great.

Ryan O'Hara:

Rishi, I love the part where you were just pouring your heart out in everything that you were doing. You were 100% the whole time.

Rishi Mathur:

I go nothing but 110%. I learned that from the great Ryan [Sheffer 00:04:30].

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, that's a different Ryan LeadIQ. I thought you were going to say me. I thought you were going to say me. Shout out to Ryan, by the way, hi. So, I hope you enjoyed that. We'll probably post that natively on LinkedIn later on the week or something, but thank you for watching that if you liked it. It's unfortunate that the show got canceled and we pulled out for financing so it's probably never going to get made, but now you know what we were working on. We were going to make the greatest thing you've ever seen. Let's to get the show. Should we, Rishi? You want to do that?

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, absolutely. Let's invite our guest.

Ryan O'Hara:

Using advanced technology, Kasey has been beamed into the meeting. This is an incredible experience. It's weird, but it's all right. How's it going Kasey?

Kasey Jones:

It's going well. How are you, Ryan?

Ryan O'Hara:

Good. Isn't it weird that we pretended that we did an intro, but we didn't? You don't have to cut this, Nick, don't worry. So, for people that are home, we actually are doing the recording a day early today and wearing the same clothes two days in a row, and Rishi looks like he's playing house right now.

Rishi Mathur:

I am playing house. Can you hear me? I am playing house. Can you hear me?

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. Before when we were doing testing we were talking about how you kind of look like a little kid. I'm just expecting your mom to bring out apple slices and a sippy cup.

Rishi Mathur:

Cookies. It's Oreo cookies and milk.

Kasey Jones:

Oh, that's a good mom.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, this is exciting. So, for people that don't know, we want to tackle today a big thing that people don't talk about enough, and that's how to be more likable when you're doing sales, prospecting, business in general. And I couldn't think of someone more likable than Kasey Jones. I was like, "Hey Kasey, can you come be on this thing?"

Kasey Jones:

I think-

Ryan O'Hara:

We're going to totally send-

Kasey Jones:

I think there are some people that would argue with you on that, but we'll take it.

Ryan O'Hara:

It's fine. I remember-

Rishi Mathur:

You said, "We'll take it," who is we'll? [crosstalk 00:06:13]

Kasey Jones:

You know, me and my alter-ego?

Ryan O'Hara:

The peanut gallery, I guess.

Kasey Jones:

That makes me likable, right, that I speak in the 3rd person?

Rishi Mathur:

Yes, of course.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, for people that don't know you, Kasey, tell people what you do. I know what you do, Rishi knows what you do, but what's the Kasey version of what you do?

Kasey Jones:

Okay. So, I am founder of A Better Jones which is a growth strategy firm and we help startups grow faster. I really sit on the marketing side, but I started in sales and I'm super super passionate about helping sales teams be successful. I also have a podcast with Ashleigh Early called The Other Side of Sales that is about being a non-stereotypical white bro in sales, and then I have a new project called Our Galaxy that's all about teaching particularly people who struggle with personal branding how to get out there and how to be thought leaders in their industry.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, one thing I wanted to ask you, you're someone that obviously has a great personal brand, in fact, when we did our prep call you mentioned that Poo-Pourri reached out to you about being an Instagram influencer, which is like a dream come true. I think you used a different term, right? Was it a poop influencer?

Kasey Jones:

A poop-fluencer. It's a-

Ryan O'Hara:

I can't say it.

Kasey Jones:

... really hard word to say.

Ryan O'Hara:

That's a very difficult complex thing to say. So, one of the things though that we were talking about with that is the value of a personal brand. There are a lot people that are out there now that are reps that probably roll their eyes and think... here at LeadIQ I say this all the time, "Why do you think you need a personal brand?"

Kasey Jones:

So, you need a personal brand because here's the deal, you have a personal brand. Whether you've put effort into it, whether you've applied intention or not, you have one. Your personal brand... I love... I have my qualms with Jeff Bezos, but he's got a great quote about it, and he's like, "Your personal brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room." If you're a salesperson, if you're anybody, you have a personal brand. It's your reputation, but actually putting intention into it, really thinking about it and investing in it, that's going to mean that you are owning your personal brand rather than kind of happenstance and coincidence. I will also say though I've been thinking a lot lately about the difference between personal brand and thought leader, and I think that everybody has a personal brand, but you have the opportunity to become a thought leader. And that requires more work, it requires more attention, and frankly it requires more giving. And so, what I've been thinking about more and more is about how we can actually become thought leaders in our space, not just how we build personal brands. Because I think the other thing about that term is it makes people feel like they're trying to be an Instagram influencer, which we all roll our eyes at and we don't...

Rishi Mathur:

I'm trying to be one.

Kasey Jones:

It just doesn't have a lot of substance.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, Rishi, stop doing that. No one likes your posts, please. I unfollowed you yesterday. I hate you.

Kasey Jones:

Hey, you know what, Rishi? That's a sign. If you've got haters, that's a sign that you are on the up and up.

Rishi Mathur:

But he's the only one. He's the only follower too.

Ryan O'Hara:

I wish on Instagram it wouldn't just show followers, it would show haters next to it.

Kasey Jones:

Yeah, but don't you have those accounts that sometimes you kind of hate follow them because you're like, they annoy me but I get fueled by the annoyance.

Ryan O'Hara:

I have a friend that is completely on the opposite side politically from me, like on the spectrum, and I think I hate myself because I'll just go to his Facebook posts and just read them and get angry. But I like it, like I like getting angry. I don't comment, I don't do anything. I just lurk and feel anger. So, I'll tell you something, people that are sales reps that are listening to this and sales leaders, and I know we've been piping on this over and over again, part of the reason I tell people this all the time is, I do have some intention, if you have a personal brand you'll get more engagement on social and you can prospect the people that you engage with and stuff on social with phone and email. You don't have to do it on social and be weird and sell people on there and be creepy, but if you have a personal brand you're also going to be more likable. That's the thing, no one... One of the things I've been talking about, Kasey, is you are selling to extraordinary people. If they got to a position where they're at C level or VP level, they probably do extraordinary thing, take risks, they're really interesting. You don't get there if you're boring.

Ryan O'Hara:

You're not just like a basic person. I know that sounds really mean, but you're not just like a basic boring person if you've climbed up and done this stuff. And what that entails is that extraordinary people want to be reached out to be extraordinary people, and that's one of the easiest ways to do it. What are some things that you've done? So, you work with all these different people, you coach people, you professionally develop people, what are the people... Do you ever work with people that aren't likable and you figure out to make them more likable? Is that something that ever comes up? I know that's a weird thing to say, but.

Kasey Jones:

I've worked with some people that are kind of mean, but no. So, here's the deal, I genuinely think that everybody is likable in some way, and particularly the people that I wind up working with they're passionate about the work they do, they're smart, they care about the work they do, they're invested in it, and those are likable people. There is something incredibly captivating about having a conversation with someone who is really jazzed about the work that they do. That kind of energy is infectious and it makes you see the positive side in them, even if there's some personality things where you're like, "Don't love that person or we don't necessarily gel but I respect and appreciate their passion."

Ryan O'Hara:

Do you think enthusiasm is something that is caused by the circumstances someone has, or do you think it's something that they can make themselves and there's ways to do it?

Kasey Jones:

Oh, Lord, enthusiasm, joy, all of these things, those are intentions. Every single day that you wake up, and this is the other thing that I think about a ton, is personal growth and personal development. What are the things that you can do every day? What's your morning routine like? What are the book's that you're reading? You can have habits and practices in your life that make you frankly more likable, right? If you are starting your day thinking about what you're grateful for and what you're going to do to make today great or have an impact today, you're going to be a lot more likable, positive, optimistic person than if you spend your time hate reading your friend's Facebook page just so you can get really angry.

Ryan O'Hara:

I'm great. I'm a not a bad person, I swear.

Kasey Jones:

No, you're a wonderful person. Because here's the deal, I think if you weren't you you would go to that profile and you would comment and you would get in big fights on Facebook with people. So, the fact that you sort of go and lurk and keep it to yourself is telling, but I think energy and enthusiasm, that's a choice.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, you're saying you can technically be enthused about whatever you're doing if you're STR, AE, VP, whatever you are, the positions you're in, you just have to choose to be enthusiastic about stuff and attack the day a little bit, right?

Kasey Jones:

Yeah, and you have to find the thing about that role or about that endeavor that is feeding the stuff that really matters to you. And dude, being an STR is a grind, okay? One of the reasons I'm such a huge advocate for SDR's is because I feel like you don't get the love and attention and respect that you deserve. The proverbial... Can I curse on this thing?

Ryan O'Hara:

Of course.

Kasey Jones:

Okay, the shit rolls down hill, and that means-

Ryan O'Hara:

[crosstalk 00:14:46]. Oh, sorry.

Kasey Jones:

... that SDR's get the worst of it, and despite the fact that you are the front line. You are doing really really really tough work and it's hard. It's a grind, so I know that you can't always be enthusiastic, but if you can think about what it is about your role that you do enjoy that is fueling you and your dreams and your career and the things that you want to learn, and also all of the good that you're doing, all of the ways that you're serving both the AE's that you support, the customers that you're working with. All of this, it's all about perspective, and that doesn't mean you're going to love every day and it doesn't mean you're going to love every part of your job, but you can kind of zoom out and think about the big picture and how it's fueling that really matter to you.

Rishi Mathur:

So, quick question, say somebody's very enthusiastic with what they're doing but then along the way they started getting discouraged, what is some ways to pick them back up? Because I know a lot of times you'll have an idea, you'll have a project you're working on, super excited about it and then all of a sudden somebody says something or something happens and it's just not going the way you expected to go, and then you get so discouraged. How do you...

Ryan O'Hara:

Thanks for the personal attack, Rishi. No, I'm just kidding.

Rishi Mathur:

You're welcome.

Kasey Jones:

Well, no, I think this is a really really good question. So, I think there's a couple things, it partly depends on what's causing the discouragement. It is because one person said something negative? Okay, you got to use that stuff as a data point, a single data point. It does mean that it's worth looking at. What did they tell you? Is there something you can learn from it? Or, also look at where it comes from, is it coming from somebody, I don't know, they have a vested interest in your failure? Maybe you pay a little less attention to that. But I think if you are getting frustrated, take a step back, think about what you want to get out of the project or what the goal is, and figure out how you can get the help you need, get the feedback that you need, and learn and get that project back on track and back to where it's going. Don't give it up, okay? Think about what about it is frustrating you. Are you hitting obstacles that you can find a work around for? I think that one of the things that particularly sales professionals that are young in their career, you're reluctant to ask for help because you're worried that people are going to think less of you or they're going to think you don't know what you're doing.

Kasey Jones:

Here's the deal, none of us know what we're doing. We really don't. I've had conversations with mentors who I just think the world of who I think are so ridiculously smart about the fact that they don't know what they're doing either. They're kind of figuring it out as they go, that's what we're all doing. So, give yourself a little bit of slack and then make a plan of how you can reach out to someone who can give you some advice and give you some help. Talk to your friends and to your colleagues to vent and be like, "Hey, I'm struggling with this. What do you think?" Get your personal team of advisors in on this thing to help you get it moving again and get confident and positive about it.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, I was actually thinking about this a little bit. So, I want to tell people that are watching this, one of the big reasons I wanted to have Kasey on is I remember this past summer you wrote a blog list and it was about dealing with all kinds of stuff, your personal stuff, overcoming all this stuff, and-

Kasey Jones:

It's about my mid-life existential crisis is what Ryan is referencing.

Ryan O'Hara:

Anyway, I loved it because it was completely true, and people follow you and watch your videos online and everything you do. You have a big following and stuff, and they don't realize that people like you are also dealing with problems and insecurities all the freaking time. It's not just SDR's. You're a VP of sales. If you're a VP of sales right now, you probably have people that are your team that you don't get why they don't like you, or you don't know-

Kasey Jones:

Oh, yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

I could go down the list of things like that. Rishi, how many times do I call you during the week and say, "Man, maybe this idea is stupid. Maybe we should stop doing this?" I seem confident but behind the scenes I'm having meetings and talking about-

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, he's a mess.

Ryan O'Hara:

Dude, it sucks. I actually think it's something that's important because one of the thing's that's really risky is we want to tell people today that you need to put yourself into the business you're doing. The days of having it be separate are gone. There used to be a time where you would have an email address and you'd get out of work and your desktop would stay work. We now have laptops to bring home, we have phones with our emails and cold calls we're receiving on it. I've got texts that I... I mean, I text you, I text Rishi. We've got this stuff in our personal life that's not spliced in and it's meshing into one.

Rishi Mathur:

I got this job through a text from you.

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, that's true.

Kasey Jones:

Okay, let me make a quick point here, another real advantage of a personal brand... Okay, so Ashleigh and I had James [Bottim 00:20:21] on our podcast, I don't know, a month ago, and we were talking about... No, it was a little longer than that because we recorded it like right when shelter in place was happening, so like two months ago. So, we were talking about personal brand and he told us this whole story... That's my dog crying behind the door here-

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, that's okay. That's okay.

Kasey Jones:

... so if you can hear that in the background. He told us this whole story about how when he got laid off in 2014 he had six weeks of constant applying for jobs, like sending out resumes, all of this other stuff, and then he got laid off I think in like 2018 or 2019. After he'd been doing his podcast, he kind of built his personal brand on LinkedIn, and he posted one thing on the day that he got laid off and he got a job offer, like a signed letter two days later. So, this is the other thing that a personal brand does, and especially if you're authentic about it. So, people get a sense of who you are as a person and they trust you, and so this is the amazing thing about what everyone is going to be watching here. Ryan and I don't... we haven't hung out that much, we don't know each other that well, but we both feel like we are closer friends than the interaction would dictate because both of us have these really active personal brands and we both have the sense that we feel like we're kindred spirits and we know each other pretty well, and then you throw Rishi into the mix and it's like a whole other...

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, it's just makes it-

Kasey Jones:

It's just like leveling that thing up. It's a little ridiculous. Once I realized that Rishi worked for you it was like, well shit, okay, makes that much more sense in that there's this growing fondness for the whole LeadIQ team.

Ryan O'Hara:

I was kind of mad that Rishi had you on an OutboundTV video before I got you on something with me, because I was like, "Oh, damn." Once of the things I like about doing these longer winded pieces of content is we can get deeper into this stuff, but if you're listening to this, I want something that anyone in B2B can listen to whether you're sales marketing, VP, SDR, like everyone here that's listening, this applies to you. You can put yourself into things, and don't worry. I think about a lot of people are afraid to put themselves into the stuff they do.

Kasey Jones:

Oh.

Ryan O'Hara:

And it's because they think they're going to get rejected.

Kasey Jones:

Well, and it's terrifying. You know, my brother who's very very sarcastic, he once said, "Well, if you don't try then you can't fail," right?

Rishi Mathur:

It's a really good point.

Kasey Jones:

And that's the thing, and it's scary to put yourself out there. I'm actually writing a blog post right now about the secret that if you're new to personal branding and new to putting yourself out there on social media that you don't realize. Guess what? Now is the time to put yourself out there because no one's freaking following you, and if you say something stupid not that many people are going to notice, and so, the risk is really low, right? You have this opportunity to kind of test things and see how it goes, and I think the other thing that I see a lot is people think that you have to this plan, it has to be perfect. The video that went viral and got me started on all of this and got me started doing video and got me way more active on LinkedIn, I recorded it in one take. I didn't think about what I was going to say, I had my phone on a stack of Post-Its leaning up against my computer monitor, it was just in my officer at [WeWork 00:24:15]. It was not professional. I didn't have lighting, none of that, but it's by far the best video I've ever done because it was the most personal and it was the most passionate.

Kasey Jones:

And that's the thing, people are kind of... especially not on Instagram, I think people are really fed up with stuff that feels overly produced and fake. People want to connect with people, and so putting yourself out there and being really authentically you, whatever that means, that's the stuff that's going to resonate. That's what's going to land.

Ryan O'Hara:

It actually makes me think of... People probably have heard me say this before and stuff, but I'm a huge fan of Aaron Sorkin. I love Aaron Sorkin's work. I love The West Wing when it was coming out, Newsroom's great, well the first couple seasons were good and then it got bad, but that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter, we're not critiquing that. One of the things that I saw Aaron Sorkin do on a panel that he was on about writing, he was talking about this... and I watch it because it helps me come up with ideas for what we're going to do for work for marketing and stuff. He talks about people have a natural curiosity to actually see what's happening behind the scenes of things that are actually happening. Every script that he does... He did that Steve Jobs movie and it basically was what was happening before he went up and presented for three different product launches. He did it for The West Wing where what's happening behind... what the president's saying and stuff, Newsroom, what's happening behind cable news. It's the same thing when you post stuff on LinkedIn.

Ryan O'Hara:

That's the easiest way to start, is take things that are happening in your life and post them. The reason this relates back though is we want you to build close relationships with people that you're closing and prospecting. The easiest way to get that closeness is by producing content that shows people the real you and what you're actually going through.

Kasey Jones:

Absolutely, and here's the other thing that I'd say is if you're nervous about it you don't have to go immediately into creating your own content. Start engaging with others, and please don't think that, "Great post!" is engaging with someone's content. No, it's add your thought. When someone posts something, what does it make you think about? What did you learn from it? What immediately came to mind? Don't overthink it. Think about it in a much more personal way. Ryan, you're hitting on this point of how do you build an actual relationship? Well, stop thinking about it as though it's something different than what you do in person, okay? And this is always my recommendation, so I coach a lot of early stage founders that are trying to sell their products themselves, and I try to explain like how do you write a good sales email, right? Well, one of the things... Oh, or how do they give their pitch, or whatever? What I always say is imagine you're a cocktail party. You've had one and a half drinks. You are not drunk, but you're feeling it. You're in a good mood, and you start talking about your product or about the problem that your product solves. You're talking about something that you are excited about. How would you say it then?

Kasey Jones:

You're not going to use freaking jargon. You're not going to use a bunch of long jargony buzzwords. You're going to speak in simple language, it's going to feel personal, and you're going to speak with energy and excitement. If you can take that mindset of getting active on social isn't... This is the other thing I hear, "Oh, well I don't want to brag." Look at any account that you follow and that you really like what they do, do they ever brag? I mean, some people do, but most people don't. Most of the time they're sharing. They're sharing what they're thinking about, they're sharing something they've learned, sometimes they're sharing something they tried and failed at. Think about it like you're building an actual relationship, it's just relationship building at scale which is kind of cool. Although-

Ryan O'Hara:

I love the party thing, by the way, that's great, like talk about it like you're at a party. That's such a good way of wording it.

Rishi Mathur:

And also, Ryan, how are you on one and a half drinks right now?

Ryan O'Hara:

What'd you say?

Rishi Mathur:

How would you be on one and a half drinks? I'm curious to know this. You know Ryan doesn't drink ever?

Kasey Jones:

I didn't know that.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, did you know that?

Kasey Jones:

I didn't know that.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, I don't drink alcohol, so.

Rishi Mathur:

He does not.

Kasey Jones:

Wow. Well-

Rishi Mathur:

He doesn't even do-

Kasey Jones:

Okay, but you still know, like you're at a party and you're in a great mood and you're jazzed about something, it's that feeling.

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, the main reason I don't do it is because I'm always drunk.

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, always.

Ryan O'Hara:

That's my secret.

Kasey Jones:

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a pretty good secret.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, here's the thing though, VP's of sales, they get caught up in this high level visionary thing of what they're saying sometimes and it's like, "Okay, what's that really mean," and it just doesn't make sense to them.

Kasey Jones:

Oh, yeah. Well, and here's the deal, I think another example that I use all the time, and I've even gone way back in his history and saved the individual links to the posts, but Adam Schoenfeld who he's the VP of strategy at Drift now but he was CEO of [Sift Data 00:29:45], is that right? I don't know.

Ryan O'Hara:

It was called Siftrock.

Kasey Jones:

Siftrock. I always think that it's Siftrock, but that doesn't sound right to me. Okay, but so they got bought by Drift, but what like two years ago now he did this whole thing where he did a three month stint as his company's SDR as the CEO, and so he had this whole series of CEO as SDR. It's about him try... and it's actually very sort of enduring because it's him being super honest where he's like, "Oh, my God, this is so much harder than I thought it was," and talking about how he tried one campaign and it totally bombed or when he pissed people off, or all of these things. And he's super transparent about the things that he's doing, what he's learning, how hard it is, mistakes he made. I think it's just a phenomenal example of how you don't have to share something about your big bold vision for the world or the future. It's about what are you doing day to day and what are you learning and what are you trying?

Ryan O'Hara:

You have to do the Steve Jobs posts, right? Like when you're selling that's what people are doing that's... That joke fell flat, I suck. I talked to Adam when he was doing that, so he had failed for a little while and he asked me to do a meeting with him and we just jammed around and talked for a little while. The cool part is all his posts were just transparently what was happening and everybody was following him. It had a ton of posts and stuff, but the thing is I felt like I knew Adam.

Kasey Jones:

Oh, yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

I felt like I had a close relationship with him, and when they were trying to work a partnership with LeadIQ, I instantly felt obligated to take a meeting with him because it stems back to I like this person, I'm close with him. That's what you need to do if you're watching this and you're trying to figure out how to get a close relationship. It's you need to be vulnerable and expose yourself to the things that you're dealing with.

Kasey Jones:

Here's the deal, you need to be human. What do we connect with others on? It's not about... We don't form close connections with people because we only talk about how great things are. Your closest friendships are the ones where you share real honest things, and so if you can share real honest vulnerable things with more people, let me tell you, you will have more close friendships. Whenever I say this people don't believe me, but I was never a kid growing up in college or even my 20s where I had a lot of friends. I just was not that person. I went to three high schools in three states in three years. I was always the new kid. I went to a school where I didn't really fit in college wise, and so I was a loner for a really long time and I'd have like one or two kind of close friends. It is a weird thing to say, but I have so many really close friends that I meet on social media. People that like, like holy moley, like James Buckley. When I met him in person for the first time it was like, I don't know, like we ran across a room and jumped into each other's arms.

Kasey Jones:

That's going to happen when I finally meet Rishi in real fucking life. When I met Ryan we both were like, "Oh my God," like freaking out, and I was so honored that he knew who I was and then I found out he felt the same way about me. And it's like that's the thing that happens is you jump like 10 stages in a friendship because somebody already feels like they know you because of you being really honestly you in this public forum.

Rishi Mathur:

I think the one thing I like Ryan that he does a lot is he interviews people when he doesn't know something, or he'll ask for help online sometimes, but mostly it's interviewing people that I think is really interesting that I don't see a lot of VP's doing that at all. Because I think they're supposed to have all the answers, but you can't have all the answers. So, if I-

Ryan O'Hara:

I was going to say, Rishi-

Rishi Mathur:

[crosstalk 00:34:09].

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, what I was going to say, Rishi, what you're building off of is a good point too. I also think that if I'm looking at a leader I'm way more likely to like a leader if they are putting stuff out there also. I feel like you're going to respect them more, you're going to know that they have some thought... If they're a thought leader, you're going to respect them for their thought leadership on things if you see it's being validated by other people online.

Kasey Jones:

So, I actually just did a YouTube video about why do leaders need to have an active presence on LinkedIn, and so I did a ton of research on the statistics around this. And I think it was in 2016, CEO.com, which is own by Domo, but anyway, CEO.com did this survey of how people view social CEOs and the statistics are insane where it's like... I think the lowest number was like 78% up to 91%, they thought that social CEOs were more trustworthy, were better for the brand, they wanted to work for them more, they were inspired by them, they were better leaders, like everything. Because when you put yourself out there in that way as a leader, your team feels energized, they feel inspired. They have someone to follow. They feel more connected. And look, this is one of the things that's really hard, I think, about being a VP or a C level leader is you probably have a pretty big team beneath you, and that means... and now your team might be fully distributed. It's fully distributed now, but it might be fairly distributed like the last time I was in sales the SDR and account management team was in Portland but everybody else was in San Francisco.

Kasey Jones:

So, we didn't get a lot of face time with our leaders, and if they had been more active on social media we would've had a much better sense of who they were and felt like we had a close connection to them. And also, had more to connect with them on because then when we did see them in person we could've been like, "Hey, you did this post," or, "You said this thing," and there's sort of more for you to go off of. I think leaders get nervous about doing those things, worried about sort of saying the wrong thing, but dude, because of what David Cancel and Dave Gerhardt did at Drift everybody wanted to work at Drift.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, and look at the crowded space it's in, right? There's Intercom, which is another big company. Intercom literally is bigger than Drift in market share, well or they were. I don't know if they are anymore. Live Admins. There's a whole list of these different chat widget apps that are out there. HubSpot has a native one too, but they were able to do this category creation thing because their exact team was putting themselves out there on social and talking about stuff, and-

Kasey Jones:

And legit, from a leadership perspective, my number one recommendation to every single early stage company that I work with and every founder is you need to get active on social. You need to build your personal brand, because here's the other thing is your personal brand has a lot more reach early on than your company brand. Building a company brand takes a long freaking time. Building a personal brand does not take that long. It really doesn't.

Ryan O'Hara:

The way I kind of look at it now, and this is something I want, especially if you're a leader listening to this, to think about, the way you run your reps and your talent and your marketers and your individual contributors and your leaders should almost be run like a media company and your brand is the network. It's TBS, it's NBC. You're talent is the shows. That's like-

Kasey Jones:

I like that. That's a great analogy.

Ryan O'Hara:

[crosstalk 00:38:14].

Kasey Jones:

I love that.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, that's the [inaudible 00:38:15].

Rishi Mathur:

What would you say to people who are insanely nervous of just being on camera, just their face and everything, like they just get so like-

Kasey Jones:

So-

Rishi Mathur:

Because I know I have a few friends before they got into comedy they had... what's it called? They got so anxious on stage that they had a panic attack.

Kasey Jones:

Stage freight.

Rishi Mathur:

They had a panic attack and got off. So, people get that, what is your recommendation for them?

Kasey Jones:

Well, a couple things, one, you don't have to do video. It's okay. I think video is playing weirdly... on social anyway, or at least on LinkedIn. LinkedIn deprioritizes video, which makes me sort of sad because I really love doing video and I just enjoy it. So, you don't have to do video so it's totally okay to find the format or the medium that works for you. And I'd also say if you are some... Now, if you are in sales you got to be on LinkedIn and stuff, but I will also say if you want to make this personal branding thing a career enterprise, find the platform that you just kind of like, right? So, I'm working with a founder right now who he's active on LinkedIn but Twitter is his jam, and partly it's because he's a data guy. And so, his audience is a little bit nerdier, they're way more active on Twitter. Twitter is his... he dominates on that platform because it's speaking his language, and that's okay. Find the place, find a format, maybe you're amazing at writing blog content, maybe you've got one of those, I don't know, silky deep voices and you are just the born podcaster and you love interviewing people.

Kasey Jones:

Figure out what works for you and own it. Go after it. You don't have to... That's the thing about a personal brand, it's personal. You can create this whole sort of identity and how you connect with people in a way that fits for you, so think about what you genuinely enjoy and what you think you can be consistent at and go after that.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, I definitely don't talk with a deeper voice. I have a podcast voice, I guess. This is what I sound like all the time.

Rishi Mathur:

You sound like a smoker.

Ryan O'Hara:

My podcast in certain places just sounds like I'm two packs of cigarettes in.

Rishi Mathur:

Like a chain smoker, boom.

Kasey Jones:

Okay. So, yesterday I was on a call with two other people and somebody accidentally hit the Siri button. And so, Siri starts talking really loudly on this call that we're on and they both thought it was me.

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, no.

Kasey Jones:

And I was like, "What?" I was like, "I don't sound like Siri." I'm like, "That kind of bums me out." No.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, one thing I do want to talk about too, so you get in these close relationships with people because you're putting content out there, you're engaging with them, you're talking with them, what about people that are working deals already? Like what if you're working... You dipped your toe a little bit into that area sort of in the early part of your career.

Kasey Jones:

Oh, yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

What do you do to get a close relationship with people? I have some stuff that I'll say after, but I want to know what your perspective is on it.

Kasey Jones:

So, don't just talk about business. Actually give a damn about them as a human. And look, here's the other thing, we all know this, people don't buy from companies, they buy from people, and companies don't buy from companies. People buy from people. So, you got to be constantly thinking about the individuals that you're working with when closing the deal and understanding what they're going through, empathizing with them. Don't just think about the deal, think about the relationship. So, find out about them, ask about them. Actually give a damn about the experience that they have. Understand what they're going through and that stuff will build naturally. The other thing I will say, and I had a really interesting call recently with someone who he started his career as a programmer and then became an SE and then he was working for a consulting firm and he had to... he was in sales for this consulting firm. And he said that he spent the first few years trying to be like a sales guy, and he said that it was super draining. He would be so exhausted at the end of calls and at the end of the day, and he wasn't very good at it.

Kasey Jones:

And then, all of a sudden he realized that he didn't need to think about selling, he needed to think about helping. So, he started to sell in a way that was really authentic to him. So, he's a nerd and he owns the fact that he is a nerd, so he would talk about the data and the nerdy aspects of stuff and get really nerdy with them and he started to absolutely kill it at a salesperson. So, the other thing I would say is find a sales process and a way of connecting and talking about what you do in a way that is really authentic for you. Don't try to be like the other guy with the point toed shoes and whatever. Be you. Maybe you are the guy with the pointy toed shoes.

Ryan O'Hara:

Rishi just afraid the camera's going to pan down and expose his toed shoes that he's wearing.

Kasey Jones:

But you know-

Rishi Mathur:

I'm barefoot.

Kasey Jones:

Whatever, he's got like jean shorts on underneath that blazer and tie. I know you both do. But no, be authentically you in the process and authentically connect with the person that you're doing business with.

Ryan O'Hara:

One of the things that I like to think about is, I talk about this a lot, so I didn't come up with this. I originally learned this in... All right, it's really silly. My senior year of high school, I went to Pinkerton Academy, shout out to everyone from Pinkerton if you happen to go to that place. I didn't go to a private school, I know everyone's thinking that. It's a public charter school. Basically, my town I lived in New Hampshire was so small that they would send students... they'd pay our tuition to go to this school because they didn't want to build a high school.

Rishi Mathur:

[crosstalk 00:44:51].

Ryan O'Hara:

Cool place, big school. I had a huge graduating class. I had this teacher. Mr. [Rodrick 00:44:59]. I don't even know if he's still alive anymore. Isn't that crazy to think about that people you had in high school might be dead?

Kasey Jones:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

I know that sounds sad, but I'm just thinking about it because he was probably in his 60s when he was my teacher and he might not be around anymore. I don't know, but he was a great English teacher. He got me fired up about writing and all this stuff. He talked about this thing, and I've told people about it before, I call it the three stages of conversation, and it's basically you can have human connection with people if you go to these stages. The first is small talk, current events, stuff like that. It's really boring, like, "How about them Sox?" You know, like boring conversations like that. And then, stage two is common interests. What are things that you both share outside of whatever you're talking about? One of the things that you talked about earlier was enthusiasm, and I think that's really important because you can not just be enthusiastic about your company, you can actually be enthusiastic about their company and stand out way more doing that.

Kasey Jones:

Totally. Yeah, and look, that was my absolutely favorite things about being in sales is that I got to talk to so many different companies and learn how many ways there are to make a buck in this world, and not just a buck but like millions of them. I mean, I sold a deal once, this is before I got into tech, to a company that they make non-edible sausage casings for smoked sausage and it's a 100 million dollar company.

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh my God.

Rishi Mathur:

What does that mean? What does that mean? I don't understand. What do you do with it?

Kasey Jones:

I think-

Ryan O'Hara:

You take it off. You take the edge off it.

Kasey Jones:

Yeah, you take it off. So, it's like when you get some sort of a smoked sausage and you have to cut off the...

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, yeah.

Kasey Jones:

They make that.

Rishi Mathur:

Wait, what?

Kasey Jones:

I mean, just random stuff like that and it's super interesting, and so that's the other thing is you can learn so much about how business works by taking an active interest in what your prospects and your buyers do.

Ryan O'Hara:

Kind of seems like LeadIQ needs to pivot, guys. So-

Kasey Jones:

Totally.

Rishi Mathur:

Should we do the little things in Legos, those little bumps? We could be that company.

Ryan O'Hara:

Or the weird knockoff brand of Legos. I forget what it's called.

Rishi Mathur:

Egos waffle.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, the last stage of this is obviously, the stage three of conversation, is internal feelings. Talking about what your dreams, aspirations, what your goals are, talking about why are we here? Existential stuff, and I actually think that it's easier to do that now than it was a couple years ago because-

Kasey Jones:

Hell's yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

... there's more information. You usually start conversations on stage two of common interests. You can find common interests before you reach out to someone, but if you're working with someone in a conversation don't just be like, "Hey, let's talk about the sales process. I'm going to do a slide share and do this pitch for you." Don't do that. Instead, open up the conversation, ask them a couple things like, "Hey, what's up? What'd you do this weekend?" And then whenever they give that information don't just ask them that, I know this sounds really stupid, tell them what you did too. They're not going to ask back. Just be like, "Oh, I went to this." One of the guys on our team, Steven [Benson 00:48:15], who's been here for like four years now, Steve is a Seattle Seahawks fan and figures out... like almost every conversation he'll ask them what their NFL team is and then talk about their roster of front to back. I love it. I love listening to Steve talk about it because, especially during football season, it allows him to touch someone about something that has nothing to do about the deal and just be like, "Hey, you guys did pretty well this week," or, "You guys suck this week," or something.

Kasey Jones:

Exactly. It is that kind of human connection thing. The one thing that I will say so, and I'm seeing this a lot, is this can't be fake. You see this a lot right now with everything that's going on with Covid, particularly in prospecting, where it's like you get an email that's like, "Hey, I really hope your family is safe and healthy," right into selling, and you're like [inaudible 00:49:10]. It just falls flat.

Ryan O'Hara:

Did you really care about my family?

Kasey Jones:

Do you really care or are you just trying to sell me something? So, I think that's my one caution is you actually have to be genuine about it but it is worth that investment. It's worth it for your bottom line, but also keep in mind, I know so many people that have been hired by people that were originally prospects, and that only happens when you build a real relationship with a person on the other end of the phone.

Ryan O'Hara:

I told this story, I remember once I had a prospect... I think I told this in a webinar a couple months ago to people, so if you heard this before don't yell at me. I heard there was this one prospect I talked to right before Thanksgiving, and I cold called them and this person had started a side project and I had started a side project at the time so we were talking about that on the cold call, and I remember it was right before Thanksgiving and I said, "What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Are you doing anything cool?" after he had agreed to do meeting with me. And, he was like, "I'm actually really nervous about the meeting. I'm nervous about coming home. I'm coming up to my parent's this weekend," and I'm just like [inaudible 00:50:31]. Like, this guy's telling me, an SDR that lives in his mom's basement, that he's coming out to his parent's and he's like a VP of infrastructure at some company, and I immediately was like-

Kasey Jones:

That's amazing.

Ryan O'Hara:

The guy was from Texas and I immediately was like, "If they don't like you, screw that. You don't need them." I gave him a pep talk and stuff, and I remember we got off the call. A week later when we actually had the meeting booked with the AE where I was doing the handoff, do you think he went to the meeting? Hell yeah. He went to the meeting.

Kasey Jones:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

And then when we opened up the call I was like, "Hey, how'd it go this weekend?" He said, "It went great. Wasn't even a big deal. They thought already, everything was great." I was just like, holy crap. Guess what that guy did? He kept moving to new companies every two or three years and he brought me with him every company, and he was [inaudible 00:51:19] at STR to do it. I actually moved to the marketing team and he was still showing me to people on the team to go gamble with us because he appreciated the time when we got into those deep feelings about stuff. And I talked to him about... I didn't just listen to him, I told him, "Yeah, I have issues with my parents sometimes too." I related to him, I got in the hole with him and was empathetic about it.

Kasey Jones:

That's amazing and what an honor that he trusted you with that information.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, I love that. It made me feel really good about being an SDR, at the time I was a BDR technically, but it made me feel really good about being on the call with him and being there for him.

Rishi Mathur:

See, I would tell Ryan secret thing but now I know he tells it on webinars, I'm not going to tell him anything. I can't share all my deepest darkest secrets.

Ryan O'Hara:

Rishi, I can't believe that your mom and you aren't talking right now, that's so sad. She just comes on camera. Kasey, we are kind of getting close to time-

Kasey Jones:

I know.

Ryan O'Hara:

... to wrap up. I can't believe how quickly time when by on this.

Kasey Jones:

I know.

Ryan O'Hara:

I want people in here to think... I wish that I could everyone that's watching this to think about things that we do right now that haven't changed in the past 100 years. I talk about this all the time, but sales started because people used to go talk to people face to face and they'd sell them.

Kasey Jones:

Door to door.

Ryan O'Hara:

And then when door to door scale, they made scripts, and then when phones came out they started reading those scripts. Email came out, same exact thing. We're now at a point where the way that we sell has changed a lot and technically is sold, but there are plenty of people that are still doing it the old way. How do you make a sincere connection with some today, and what do you think is the... I guess you kind of answered that question already, I guess the point I'm getting at is this, what do you think is the one thing that needs to change about sales right now if you could change one thing, you had a magic lamp and you obviously weren't using the wish on ending Covid or any of that stuff?

Kasey Jones:

I would automate a lot less. I would slow this process down, and I think here's the thing that is tough about sales is we all have a quota. We're all held by this number and sales people tend to be pretty competitive and we're all trying to beat out that other person, and that rush to reach a certain number I think in the long run costs us. I think we have this opportunity to look at the process and look at how we do things and say, "I think there's a different way and a better way." And it's interesting, I had a conversation yesterday with someone who was talking about how... So, I think often that engineering teams and sales teams are similar in that no one else in the company understands them and they're kind of allowed to do whatever the hell that they want. Software development teams over the last few years have really shifted how they measure productivity, and it used to be about individuals and now it's about teams.

Kasey Jones:

I really hope that sales starts to adopt that where we think about how the team is doing as a whole instead of individual sales reps, because if we can think about it as a team I think we would start to slow down a little bit and we would do a better job of how we build real relationships and how we support one another so that we are all doing better together instead of just grinding it out and sending more emails and upping the volume and all of that. I really hope that everybody looks at this really challenging time as this opportunity to say, "Hey, let's take a step back, let's take a pause and let's think about how there might be a different and better way to operate as a team, operate as individuals that serves both our teams and our teammates, but also our buyers and our customers."

Ryan O'Hara:

Imagine if a... I love that by the way. Imagine if you, as a leader, are listening to this and you thought, "I want every customer that comes in on a call with us to say, 'Wow, that was one of the best calls I've ever been on.'"

Kasey Jones:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

If we approached it and just thought like that, just stopped and said, "I want our reps to really care, I want it to be different. I want sales to be competitive." The way we sell should be a competitive advantage, it shouldn't be a way to hit a number. That's the way it should be approached.

Kasey Jones:

Yes. Oh, well and here's the deal-

Rishi Mathur:

It should be, what, an experience basically?

Kasey Jones:

It should be an experience, and here's the deal, I don't care what you sell. There's like 10 other companies that sell basically the same thing. Customers are going to buy from you because of the experience that you give them, and we think about customer experience as from the product on. No. It starts with sales and it starts with marketing, and sales teams and sales leaders I think need to think about that a lot more.

Ryan O'Hara:

So, we're going to wrap up at this point. Kasey, thank you very much for being on. Do you want to plug anything?

Kasey Jones:

Thanks for having me.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. Do you want to plug anything?

Kasey Jones:

If you are thinking about how to become a thought leader in your field, go check out Our Galaxy. It's ourgalaxy.co. We have a private community that's all about this and we're doing bi-weekly webinars and tons of content, and I'm about to start a new podcast that's all about teaching people how to get out there and be well known and well respected for the work they do.

Ryan O'Hara:

Awesome. Thank you for coming on, Kasey.

Kasey Jones:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Ryan O'Hara:

Rishi, I can't to get out of the Zoom. I don't like being on Zooms with you. It makes me upset.

Kasey Jones:

You guys are so mean to each other.

Ryan O'Hara:

I think-

Rishi Mathur:

I'm not mean. I think he's a great leader. He has a great smile. I say nothing but nice things to him. He has a chipmunk smile. It's amazing.

Ryan O'Hara:

Hey, Rishi, while we're doing this, maybe on our next episode we'll do your 90 day review in front of everyone.

Kasey Jones:

Well, if you need-

Rishi Mathur:

The best leader I've ever had.

Kasey Jones:

Well, if you need some external, in a 360 review you need somebody outside of the company to review Rishi, you send that review my way.

Rishi Mathur:

I will, absolutely.

Ryan O'Hara:

All right. Thank you, everyone. Take care. We'll talk to you soon.

Kasey Jones:

Bye, everyone.