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Episode 3: David Dulany

B2B Tonight Transcript

Ryan O'Hara:

What's up Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:

Not much what's going on with you?

Ryan O'Hara:

Nothing. We're seeing people pile in right now for BB Tonight. The emails are pouring in. The support, the love. This is episode three [crosstalk 00:00:10] this is really exciting.

Rishi Mathur:

Support and love? Can you read me a support and love comment.

Ryan O'Hara:

What? We go to support and love comment? I didn't, I mean...

Rishi Mathur:

You just said that. You said all the love and support is coming in.

Ryan O'Hara:

Listen, the support and love for this show is going to me not you obviously.

Rishi Mathur:

Obviously?

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. It's been going through your head for a long time and someone's got to stand up and tell you something, as you're direct, you directly report to me, and I demand for you to not make eye contact with me throughout this show.

Rishi Mathur:

I will never make eye contact with you ever.

Ryan O'Hara:

Okay. I certainly hope not because you have to earn that. What's up to people that are here? We want to say hi to some people. AJ, what's up? Dan, Dan, there's a couple of Dans in here, which is cool. Kelly, what's going on? Joe, say hi to everyone. They just drop off the meeting. They're like, "I can't do this." I do want to tell everyone to open up that we will be recording this. So if for some reason you are sitting there and you're like, "Man, I gotta go do something else," no, don't leave. Don't leave. I see you trying to leave. Don't hit the leave meeting button. Come on, come on. Listen, we're going to be fine. We're really excited for today's show. We've got a lot of cool stuff.

Ryan O'Hara:

Usually when we do this show, we try to open up with a little bit of a bid that we're going to do. While we're waiting for people to come in, I'm going to talk about what we're trying to do today and I'll tell you a little bit of the story. So last year I was looking for a cool prospecting idea to do, and we had just hired Rishi and I was trying to teach Rishi about doing some campaign, these prospecting stuff. For people that don't know what campaign based prospecting is, it's basically where you try and do something a little unique that is public and uses marketing to get into one account. And it's worked really well for us. Rishi, do you want to talk about what we did last year with Drift and The Muse?

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, so we created two infomercials. One was for Drift, which was, we basically just started talking about how great they are and they never asked us to do this. We just did it on ourselves where we decided to say how great they were, what we liked about them, et cetera, et cetera, and basically pitched to them in this infomercial style video. I would love to show them it if we could.

Ryan O'Hara:

I would, I don't think it would go well on a Zoom, but we will show people if you've missed it last year, we will share a link with it afterward. We can put it in maybe in post production or I can just share it on social so you can see the videos we made. But we did three videos. And the whole concept is that you make a prospecting thing that you do, but instead of just sending it to the prospect, you put it out on social and tag the person you're trying to target. And because you do this, it gets their attention, but it also gets everyone that follows and engages with you to come in and comment and like it too. So what we want to do today is we're going to do a little bit of an experiment here.

Ryan O'Hara:

After David Dulany, next week, we have Casey Jones on the show. We want to ask you people that are in here right now, we're doing this in front of hundreds of people that are going to watch the recording and see this and everything. We're asking you to give us a recommendation of who you want to have on the show right now. If you could pick one person that we could get on a show in the future, who would it be? Go over to chat right now and type it in. And what we're hoping is, think of someone that you'd like to get some insight from, maybe someone cool in sales and prospecting. Couple of rules for us, they have to be active on LinkedIn. If they're not active on LinkedIn, this experiment we're going to try is not going to work. Does anyone want to pipe in and jump in some stuff. AJ, you got somebody right? Pop someone in there that you'd like to see on the show that you like.

Ryan O'Hara:

Here's what we're going to do as an experiment. So someone wrote Brian Burns. We've to look up who Brian Burns is. What companies does he work at, William? Could you type that up too? So here's what we're going to do. We are going to make a promo with everyone right now that's in this meeting for that person and we're going to record it. And we're going to host it on social after this webinar with that person tag asking them to come on the show and say that people wanted them. So we want people to pipe in, jump in some people that you might want to be on this thing, and we'll put it out. We need a couple more recommendations so we can decide and stuff. So Ryan Reisert, Connect and Sell. I know Ryan, good guy. That'd be cool. Mary Grothe, at Sales BQ. I've actually never heard of Mary. Let's check up Mary really quick. What's her last name? Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:

Her last name is Mary Grothe. G-R-O-T-H-E.

Ryan O'Hara:

G-R-O

Rishi Mathur:

T-H-E.

Ryan O'Hara:

T-H-E.

Rishi Mathur:

Right there. First one.

Ryan O'Hara:

Cool. Let's check on Mary. I don't know much about Mary. So what we're going to do... Oh, she's talking to Paychecks. That's cool. What we're going to do is we're going to make a video for... Let's do Mary for the sake of it. 'Cause I already know Ryan, I've never met Mary before. Let's ask Mary to be on the show. And what we're going to do is we're going to plead with her why we should do it.

Ryan O'Hara:

So one of the best ways to do a prospect to video is you want to read and research a couple of things about your prospect. Hold on a second. If Mary's in here, it's going to be really awkward. Wouldn't that be funny? The brutal truth about sales podcasts. Oh, is that her podcast, William? Is that who does it or is that Brian's? What we want to do, we're going to look at some of the posts that Mary's had and we're going to bring this up in the video that we film right now with people. And we're going to do the slide in front of everyone, and Nick, our producer is going to cut it afterwards. Nick, if you want to say hi to everyone, you can you're muted, but you just say hi.

Ryan O'Hara:

So Nick is our producer who puts together the show. So she's going to talk about this. I promised you a big announcement. Here you go. Let's hear what our big announcement is. "My last post exposed some pain heartache, but now it's roses and sunshine. Sales BQ is stronger than ever yielding significant growth for our clients. Our team is doing remarkable work, but we're growing again. Most of my relationship with my family has been restored. Pandemic shut down was the greatest thing that needed to happen. Last month, I recorded a guest on the Sell or Die podcast with Jeffrey Gitomer. After hearing about the BQ method, he not only suggested I write a book about it, but he offered her to help me write it and get it to the masses. He only takes in a few authors year and believes I have a story to tell. I'm excited to get this story to you." So she's obviously gonna have a cool story to tell about this. I think we're going to talk about her book, The BQ Method. You ready Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:

I'm ready.

Ryan O'Hara:

All right. Let's try this. People in the audience feel free to be cool. And by the way, We'll check out Brian Burns too. Maybe we can do two and see how they go. Does that sound good? So let's do two. We'll start with Mary. All right. You ready? We're going to do this.

Rishi Mathur:

I'm ready.

Ryan O'Hara:

All right. This is the cut, everyone here is witnessing this. Hello? I'm Ryan O'Hara. This is Rishi Mathur over here. You might actually be on the other side and pointing doesn't make any sense because we're probably going to show one of us at the time. Mary, we are here live on B2B Tonight, a lot of people are watching it and we want to ask you to be a guest on here. You were requested by a couple of people in chat, and we want to get you on the show. So we thought it'd be cool to ask you on the show live and then when we post this, we'll put it on LinkedIn and tag you. I've heard a lot of cool things and we just saw your posts that you're working on a book on the BQ Method. Kind of makes me want to eat barbecue when learning about the BQ Method, I don't know about you Rishi, is that how you feel?

Rishi Mathur:

Well, I'm starving now. I'm actually going to hop off to go eat.

Ryan O'Hara:

Nope, no you're not. Nope. How dare you? How dare you? You will not do that. Stay here please. Anyway, Mary, if you'd like to be on, I'm going to tag you on this video. All you have to do is DM me on LinkedIn and we'll set you up to do something sometime in June. Pretty excited about it. And seen. Phew. So you see how we did that? We talked about her, we led with what makes her special. By the way, everyone listening, we're going to have David Dulany on in a second. We're just going to do one more. We are going to do one for Brian Burns.

Rishi Mathur:

Oh, well I felt your emotions now. You should definitely win an award for that. We'll figure an award to make you win.

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, I know Brian. I know Brian. I've recognized... I saw Brian talk actually somewhere, but it's okay. We're going to get Brian Burns on. So I'm screen-sharing here. You guys can see my beautiful screen. Let's get Brian Burns on. What do you want to do? What should be our angle for Brian? When I look at some of his posts and see, we can come up with something personalize.

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:08:02].

Ryan O'Hara:

Finally. This is how you guys should prospect if you can. If you're reading about a prospect online, find a couple of things you can talk about here. I've seen Brian speak before. I didn't recognize him. I feel bad. Okay. What do you think about the state of sales selling? I can't play video cause you guys are on here. All right. Let's do sales and marketing, you have it all backwards. Did you know that the buyer's journey is just a myth? Yes. The buyer wants something needs to solve a problem, but no company has the decision. Making course or how to implement, change class. It's up to sales to guide the buyers to the process. All right. So we're going to talk about this post for a second. And we're going to use that to get to talk to Brian and get Brian on here. You ready Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah, actually I'll do this one.

Ryan O'Hara:

Okay. You're going to lead it. I'm going to hit record on my computer by the way, too. I forgot to do that earlier.

Rishi Mathur:

Sounds good.

Ryan O'Hara:

All right, go ahead.

Rishi Mathur:

Hey, Brian, I'm Rishi. And right next to me is Ryan and we are actually on B2B Tonight and we've got requested by all of our fans and all the people that are watching us that we want you as our not next guest, but next guests. And I'm really asking Brian, please, I saw your posts and please do this for me, man. I really need you to. I work for Ryan O'Hara man, my life can't get worse just help me, help me. I read a lot of your posts and I just need you please, please.

Ryan O'Hara:

I feel like maybe you're a little needy there and also you threw me under the bus here. Brian, I've seen you before talk at conferences. I've liked your videos. You have some great stuff. The post he was talking about was about the buyer's journey. We were looking at that before this in front of the whole audience. We want to get you on the show.

Rishi Mathur:

I was pouring my heart and soul out here and you interrupt.

Ryan O'Hara:

We're going to put a video up with me and Rishi. Rishi is going to cry at the beginning. We're going to put this on LinkedIn and tag you. If you want to be on the show, just DM me back and we'll hook you up, or DM Rishi actually, that might be kind of cool. But let's try it out. So everyone that's here on the attendance, if you don't mind these two videos, we're going to post them on our personal LinkedIn profiles also the LeadIQ LinkedIn. Go in and comment and like it and tag Brian and say something you like about Brian and why he should be on the show and we'll do that afterwards. It might take a couple hours for us to cut the videos. I don't know how quick you are Nick, but we'll try and get it done. Let's jump into getting David Dulany on here, shall we? You guys ready? I wish that if we had a better studio set up, we'd probably have music while you're promoting Dave, but I can do some music. (singing) That's our really crappy house band. Hey, what's up? How you doing man?

David Dulany:

I'm great. I'm great. Thanks for having me on. This should be fun.

Ryan O'Hara:

We're really excited. Thank you everyone that helped us get Brian, and Mary, we're going to be really excited to do that. Let's start with talking about you man. How are you doing with all the pandemic stuff, what's going on?

David Dulany:

Oh, well, going through hell like everybody else. But no, we're coming out the other side. We have to push the 10 Pound Conference out obviously, but we're doing it virtual. So it's going gang busters and we're just really excited.

Ryan O'Hara:

So you're obviously one of my favorite people. I loved your conference by the way. Anyone that hasn't been to the sales development conference, it's probably the best for focusing on prospecting. I want to focus today's primarily on a really major topic that I hear a lot of people talk about, especially today in the climate. I want to talk about why SDR teams fail. And I can't think of someone better, who's had experience with working with teams that are struggling, people trying to find out what they're trying to do. If they're a new product, they have to figure out how to build a team that's scalable and get that product out. I think let's start by analyzing what happens on the individual level and we'll scale up as we keep going. Does that sound good?

David Dulany:

Yeah, that sounds great.

Rishi Mathur:

Ryan, before we begin, I had a question. What is that little character next to you David? There's a little guy next to you and I need to know about this.

David Dulany:

Yeah. Absolutely. The whole world needs to know about this. This is Mr. Pep-Talk, and he's the boss that you always wish you had. And a lot of SDRs wish that they had because SDR management is tough, but Mr. Pep-Talk is always behind me, always backing me up. [inaudible 00:12:31]

Ryan O'Hara:

That's awesome. Where can we get a Mr. Pep-Talk?

David Dulany:

Just go to mrpep-talk.com or we actually posted them on the Tenbound blog too.

Ryan O'Hara:

Rishi, you'll finally have someone that cares about your wellbeing as a boss.

Rishi Mathur:

I really need that.

David Dulany:

He's the boss that you wish you had Rishi.

Ryan O'Hara:

Glad to see he's in middle management. All right. So you have a new client that comes in, we're not going to use any names, but what's the first thing that you usually do to try and diagnose what the hell's going on? Are they companies that don't have teams already? Are they companies that have teams that are hitting numbers? What's usually the scenario.

David Dulany:

So we've worked with a lot of different levels, usually it's either they're just starting the team or they're trying to figure out what's going on and why they're not performing? And so let's start with, if they're just starting the team, obviously it's you can't just hand off the process to someone and hope for the best. I mean, I think that's the number one problem that we see out there is that it seems like doing sales development should be pretty simple. You just kind of get some names and get LeadIQ and plug them in and they're off to the races. But it's more complicated than that and people don't realize that, especially if it's, no offense, but if it's a technical founder and they just got a few bucks and they want to go to market, then it's hire somebody, put them in the seat, buy LeadIQ, and you're off to the races. And it's a recipe for failure.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. I feel, oh go ahead Rishi. Sorry, what were you going to say?

Rishi Mathur:

I'm so sorry about this, but I just want to remind people, if you guys have any questions, please free to ask in the chat or especially in the Q&A, we're willing to answer everything you guys have to ask.

Ryan O'Hara:

As long as it doesn't involve me giving away my secrets and what shampoo who I use for my hair. That's something I will never-

Rishi Mathur:

It's Dove.

Ryan O'Hara:

-tell anyone. It's not dove. That's what I use for soap. Now people know what I smell like, thanks Rishi. Fun fact, Rishi has actually used by shower 'cause he's crashed at my place when he comes into town. It doesn't matter. This is getting too detailed. Let's get back to it. So you see these people that they just hire someone by tools and say, go, and that's usually a recipe for disaster. What should you instead? What do you do when you have someone coming in that's, "We're building the SDR team, where do we start?" What do you do? What's part of the process for you?

David Dulany:

I mean, first and foremost, it's just make a commitment to figure out the process before you plug in the people and the tools. So process has got to come first. So again, depending on if you have product market fit or you're trying to figure that out, it's how can you back up the buying process into just a white board scenario? How do people find out about you at the top of the funnel? What are the pain points that they have and then how would they potentially get involved with your company? And then let's map that out and make a job description for the SDR so that they know what they're supposed to be doing when they come in and they don't have to wing it when they come and sit down, that's the main thing.

David Dulany:

Start with the process, get the list. You mentioned Ryan Reisert earlier, one of his famous quotes is, "The list is your strategy." So figure out the list, what accounts do you want to go after? Where should you spend your time? What are the people? Do you have the people? Do you have a way to contact them? Build that out and then plug in the person.

Ryan O'Hara:

Let me ask you something. So a lot of companies that are out there we'll go and have, "This is my ICP, this is the exact persona I want, total addressable market, all those different things." Do you find that companies are better looking at their existing data or setting up for goals of who they want to break into and making that a priority?

David Dulany:

Yeah, that's a good question. So I think your existing data is going to have clues about who's buying your product already. If you start to dig through the deals that you've closed and where you've had success, I mean, obviously that's going to be a treasure trove of information. If you're a single founder and you're starting to get some traction, that's going to be low hanging fruit when you start doing outbound prospecting. But on the flip side of that, if you've exhausted that potential and you feel it's time to go out, I would look at it from a scientific perspective of AB testing constantly. What is going to be the hypothesis? How are you going to execute on the hypothesis? And then how are you going to measure it?

David Dulany:

Because what I see a lot out there is people they understand that scientific process from a high level, but they have a really hard time staying consistent and pulling data back from that and iterating on the process. They just kind of keep starting new things and they forget about the AB tests that they started last week. And so they can't really iterate on it.

Ryan O'Hara:

Do you think every company should have the AB test constantly going on with who they should be going after, or do you think at some point, now we know what we're doing, stop wasting time?

David Dulany:

No, dude, I mean, it's got to be constant for any company, really. You've got to be constantly hypothesizing what the A and the B are going to be, and then constantly monitoring the results that you get from that. And I get it, I mean, it's hard to do, it's boring, nobody likes to talk about it, but that's what really, what I see differentiates sales development teams out there is, do you have the self-discipline to stay in the AB testing process and not just go off to the next shiny object?

Rishi Mathur:

I've got a question. So if you do the AB testing, say A works better than B, then do you keep testing against A, or would you do like a march madness style where you keep testing different ideas out and then try to see at the end which one works best and then keep doing it over and over again?

David Dulany:

I think you'd keep testing against A and try, I mean, just avoiding the march madness style, just because, unless you're at a bigger company where you can actually get some people to help with this. I mean, I'm talking about if you're at a level where you don't have a lot of help in running these, you want to keep it as simple as possible. And I always say, with the smaller clients, if you can't do it on a piece of paper and a pencil, then it's too complicated. It should be a spreadsheet to be able to do this. And so I try to keep it as simple as you can.

Ryan O'Hara:

So some things you can experiment with, if you're listening, you can experiment with subject lines on your cold emails, maybe your opening line, your cold call. The biggest one no one talks about is who you're actually prospecting. I think that can be a huge factor. Maybe you do a split of, how do we do prospecting people with employee account 50 to 200 versus 200 to a thousand? You can do little experiments like that. How do I deal when I prospect into this one industry, as opposed to this other industry? What's our response rate like? And there's lots of different inputs that you can look at. Do you go and do that with your clients that you guys get?

David Dulany:

Yeah, I mean, it's funny because a lot of our work comes down to just project management. It ends up being project management. And the reason I keep coming back to that is because people are so overwhelmed nowadays with all the different things that you can do and you could potentially do, and the tools that are out there, and it just becomes sort of this jumble of white noise. And so what we ended up doing a lot of times is just checking in on where we are in the testing process, what results we've gotten, is everyone doing their job, and how are we going to iterate on that? So people sometimes ask me, "Hey, what's the secret to sales development success from a program level?" And I know that we're looking for silver bullets, but at the end of the day, it's good project management.

Ryan O'Hara:

So let's talk about SDRs failing. What do you see when you go to a team, and let's say you're working with a larger team and they have SDRs and they're not hitting quota, you open up the hood, what are you looking for?

David Dulany:

So it comes down to people processes and the tech stack. Usually it has something to do with the process. And what I see a lot is that the leader of the team has gotten away from the process and they're not as involved. And it's not a knock on anybody, but the SDR job is really hard. It takes a lot of creativity. It takes a lot of positive reinforcement, all the things that make it tough. And the leaders want to sort of separate from the process and go do manager stuff a lot of the times. And so they're not in there anymore doing the actual job, running the process and understanding where the gaps are and eventually there's a separation. So one of the first things we see is, how often is the manager actually in there running the process in the trenches, on the phone, sending an email and doing it so that they can identify what's going on? A lot of times that's not happening.

Ryan O'Hara:

Do you ever think that, I know this is like a weird question, do you ever feel, I don't know about you, but when I came up in prospecting, we didn't have all these tools. The best we had someone popping up data, I think we had jigsaw back in the day when I was doing it. You'd have Salesforce and you'd have some app that would send your activity you're doing into Salesforce. It was basically that. Do you think a lot of the sales tools that are out there today that people build into their process are misused?

David Dulany:

Yeah. I mean, I think that the tools are just as used and utilized as the value that the SDRs are getting from them. So if they're not getting value pretty quickly, they get dropped. And there's kind of a lot of experimentation happening with the tools that could potentially be a distraction from the core activities of being an SDR. And so that's an issue too. I mean, it's again, it's the shiny object syndrome, where the real potential of getting a snowball effect, going with your SDR work is just doing the hard work over and over again and bringing in creative aspects like you guys were talking about earlier today, trying new AB testing and staying on process. It's hard, it's boring. It's more fun to spend a half an hour researching a new tool and plugging it in and getting it dialed in and then not use it or something like that.

Ryan O'Hara:

I feel like that happens a lot. What about, so we talked about process and tools and stuff, let's get into messaging a little bit. Do you ever look at messaging when you're working with these clients? Do you look and see all that value prop kind of sucks? Does that happened?

David Dulany:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's a very similar pattern and I probably have a very negative view about it because we usually work with teams who are struggling in some way, and we're trying to do a turnaround. But a lot of the messaging has to do with the classic problem that we talk about all day, which is it's all about the company itself and all the cool things that the company does. And there's a guy named Keenan who writes a lot of books and I'm a big fan. And he's like, "The people out there are trying to solve the issue that they have in front of them." So as soon as they see something that's irrelevant to that, or something about your dumb company, then they're just, "Delete it and move on to the next thing." They're getting too many of those. So really when we look at the messaging, it's how close is this to identifying what could be a potential pain point that's out there and then how you solve it versus the opposite that we see, which is just all about me, me, me.

Ryan O'Hara:

I remember when I was a BDR, I used to think like... I think this is an output thing that if you're listening to this and you're, I see not a leader, but there's also a mentality of like, I'm going to send this message or I'm going to do this call. And the mentality for me is I'm going to assume that every person's going to respond to me. And I think that actually frames how you're going to write it, it frames how you're going to control and take care of a call if they actually answer the phone. It's really, there's a lot of cool things that you can do. The thing that's really neat about prospecting today is there's way more information about your prospects online than you used to be. Decision makers at these big companies have to put stuff up on LinkedIn, and literally they get yelled at by firms and agencies and their strategy team.

Ryan O'Hara:

If you're a decision maker at a company, you need to be a face of the company. That's kind of what's happening now today. And a lot of the people that we're targeting and going after at the companies that we work with, work at are facing the same thing. So there's all kinds of cool stuff that you can talk about. When I used to sell the network and IT people I used to talk about all the cool stuff they were building, and we did stuff with traffic and I used to be, "It must be so cool knowing that millions of people, literary the size of New York city is visiting your website every month." That's pretty cool. Thinking of this large scale idea that you've built something that millions of people are seeing every day. That's a cool angle and that's a nice way to make an actual connection with someone.

David Dulany:

Big time. I mean, I look at it kind of outbound prospecting, like fly fishing, and you're trying to tie the most attractive lure on it and then you just got to perfect your drop and keep moving the whole time that you're out there. And I love the creative aspect of some of the stuff that you guys are doing. It doesn't all have to be pain centric messaging, it can also be pointing out something super positive that they're doing. Whatever it takes to get them to reply.

Ryan O'Hara:

I feel the perspective that I have is if you're prospecting someone they have buying power, they're probably an extraordinary person. And if they're in a position where they've done something that's extraordinary, and they're doing something great, you need to give them extra, I can't say the word, extraordinary outreach. Your cold call and cold email, you just send them a stock message, I actually think they take it as an insult. I don't know if you get this, I'm not trying to brag, I have a lot of people that will ping me and it's like they've never read my LinkedIn profile or saw that... I'm trying to peacock a little bit, you know what I mean? I want to dance around with cool feathers on me. I guess that's what I'm trying to do.

Rishi Mathur:

He's not lying. He actually has feathers and he wants to dance around with them.

Ryan O'Hara:

Listen, I'm super humble. Okay, Rishi? How dare you? Oh, by the way, everyone, I want to remind everyone to ask questions in the chat if you want. We can go out of order and stuff. Like we're talking about stuff. I'll go ahead. And what were going to say David.

David Dulany:

Yeah. I just think that we went to a very automated inside sales motion, with all the great tools that are out there. And they've helped a lot with productivity, but sometimes with those really important people, it's like the things that don't necessarily scale, like what you're talking about. And there's a guy named Stu Heinecke, I think you've had him on your show and he's got some great books about just doing crazy stuff in order to get those very high level people. And sometimes you just got to think outside the box with trying to get in front of them.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. Stu was great. He talked a lot about doing some stuff with like, he'd send cartoons to prospects. Some guys sent swords to prospects. He'd go get a sword forged. All of us have indisposable budgets that we can use on things to get a prospect. And if you went to your sales manager and said, "Can I have a hundred dollars?" And they're like, "Why?" And you're like, "Because if I get a meeting and we close this person, which we have a 25 to 30% close rate on, we're going to get thousands, maybe tens of thousands of dollars." It's a no brainer for ROI, especially if you work at a software sales or something with high margins where you're going to make a lot of money if you get the person in the door.

David Dulany:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

So you interview and talk with a lot of people too. I know you've done podcasting, you've got your conference and stuff. What are some new things that you're seeing on the leadership end? So if I'm a leader and I run a SDR team, what sort of the management style is it coaching more? Is it teaching more? Is it some sort of combination of those things? Is it someone that's trying to inspire them to do something differently? How do you get those people motivated to do something?

David Dulany:

I mean, one trend that I see a lot with very high performing SDR leaders is that they're very savvy on working within the company. And if you look at it, we're kind of sitting at an intersection of five different groups within a company, especially as you get up to a bigger company. You're interacting with obviously marketing, sales, the executive team, product development, customer success, to get information for your team's playbook. And they're just really good at marshaling resources and working politically within the organization to support the SDR team. And I'm just excited about some of the new leaders that are coming up. I mean, we really do have a seat at the executive table in a lot of companies as SDR leaders. A lot of the ones that are speaking at the virtual conference, I mean, they're very well-regarded because they can get stuff done and they're elevating the SDR position.

David Dulany:

As far as managing the teams themselves there's some great ways to coach teams now, especially if they're listening to the calls. I think that there's a couple, obviously the call recording and mining technology that's coming out, you can actually hear the conversations that are happening. And then some of the agent assisted dialing solutions, where you can have a lot more conversations and be able to coach to that, that's real time. That's what the SDRs are saying. And so if you're able to coach like that versus the usual one-on-one is, "Hey, how's it going?" "Oh, it's fine. Okay." So being able to coach like that makes them more successful.

Ryan O'Hara:

Rishi, we'll get to the questions in a second. I just want to, real quick, I wanted to ask something really quick or make a point. One thing that I've actually been thinking about a lot is why was I motivated as a BDR when I was coming up and getting out of school and stuff? And I remember I wanted to work in marketing, but I didn't really have a chance to, so I took a prospecting job. I'm really glad I did it because I wouldn't be where I'm at if I didn't do that originally. I learned a lot. I realized I had a little niche of an area where I could be creative and do some fun stuff.

Ryan O'Hara:

One of the things that I think is also really important is finding your team's why, and having the why be different. It doesn't have to necessarily be your company's why. For me, when I was at Dime, we were a company in Manchester, New Hampshire, and don't take this the wrong way people that are not in Manchester, New Hampshire, I'm not insulting you, but we all had a chip on our shoulder of thinking all these people say that you can't bull the tech company in New Hampshire, you have to be in San Francisco or Boston or New York. You can't be in the boonies, in the woods and be building a prospecting team and getting in conversations with all these different companies. That really got me fired up.

Ryan O'Hara:

Kyle, you worked at that? I remember I'd get on a cold call zone and I'd be like, "No, you have to work." I'd be fired up and be like, "You have to work with us. We're way different than these other companies. If you want to go..." It almost felt like we were challenging the status quo when we're being a prospector. And I thought it was really good why. The coaching for that made it easier for me because I was super passionate about the product, because the why might end up with something that I cared about.

David Dulany:

I mean, I see that a lot. I mean, SDRs just get super burned out and they lose their motivation because it's just the mindset is, "I have to hit my number and I have to get a certain number of appointments of demos set. And if I can't do that, then I suck." And they just get down into a spiral. So we try to turn that around. One is finding your why, why are you doing this, what's the end game? And build that comradery like you have it dying. And then also there's a lady named Andrea Waltz who I think you might know of, she's got a philosophy of go for no. And it's, instead of pinning all your hopes on getting a positive result instead, just make a goal to have a hundred people say no to you this week. Because then you're always going to hit your goal every time. And just trying to shift that mindset and add some passion and fun to it, because it's a burnout job sometimes.

Rishi Mathur:

All right. So we have a question from a guy named Alex. And he goes, "When you have folks in the team with low activity, outbound dials, and a work from home model, what's the approach you think works best rather than that says row harder.

David Dulany:

You don't want to be a micromanager, right? And the classic response to that is looking at the results and how it's converting back from activity. And this is a little bit opposite of what we were talking about before, but if the results are starting to lag, then really the only leverage from a management perspective is, well, how are the activities lining up to the results? And if the activities are starting to lag, then it's going to be a downward spiral that you need to have a conversation about. And you don't want to be a micromanager, but it's really the only thing that we can look at if the results are starting to lag is to try to build it back to how many activities are you doing and how's the quality of activities, and can we work on that? Can we improve that somehow?

Ryan O'Hara:

I didn't get to hear the answer 'cause I was liking and hopefully you guys got to see my frozen face doing this. Actually, one of the things I was thinking about when I saw that question, and Alex, it's a great question, is I actually try to gameify it a little bit. Maybe you can do something with the team where you start the day off on a weird kickoff day, you all get on a Zoom together or whatever platform you're using to talk to each other. A lot of people probably heard me say this over and over again, one of the tips that we do is we do a thing, we'll sometimes do blocks of what I call the 10 minute game. And the idea is that you set a 10 minute timer on your computer and you have 10 minutes to find a prospect, research them, come up with a couple of talking points and call and email them.

Ryan O'Hara:

I recommend starting with email and then calling afterward, but you write your email and if you hit that 10 minute timer and you don't get it done fast enough, you have to add them to a sequence and do it later on and move on to the next prospect. But the idea to it is that you do six of those an hour and they're all personalized, you're figuring out five hours where you're actually prospecting one hour for lunch and the other two are probably cleaning up your inbox and taking meetings and stuff. You end up doing 30 to 40 personalized activities a day if you stick to the schedule. And the cool part is no interruptions will come in. Slack messages, you ignore it because you got a timer you're on the clock, you got to get this done.

Ryan O'Hara:

That's one game that we've done really well. The neat part is you'll get better at it. You do the 10 minute game and as you get better at it, you can do the eight minute game. Eventually, when your rep's fully onboard and comfortable at this process, they can give them the five minutes, now they're doing 60 activities a day instead of 30. And that's a nice little micro thing that they can do where they set a timer. If you want to do it in a group setting, set a timer, you can just literally YouTube 10 minute timer, turn open a Zoom and screen share, and just hang out on the Zoom while they're doing whatever they were going to do. And everyone's hanging out on mute getting it done. When the 10 minute games done, you say, "Hey, timer's up. Did you guys get your emails out? Who got them out?" And people can raise their hand and stuff. You'd make it a little bit more interactive and fun.

Ryan O'Hara:

That's kind of what I would recommend. It's a nice little trick to get your guys focusing a little bit more and not getting distracted by outside things that happen. The other obvious thing that you can do that I hear a lot of people do is, people do prospecting blitz is a lot more. Do blitzes together and do more of them instead. So instead of doing a prospecting blitz for like, "Hey, it's Friday, we're just going to call and slay this list. Let's go through it," maybe you do a daily blitz with everybody and you go through a period of time where you're all doing it together and going through the same things, you'll be in a much better spot. We did have another question in chat that William asked, he said, "Are products like [inaudible 00:38:15] relevant or is it just another type of cold call?" I assume you're talking about is cold video a video prospecting platform, [inaudible 00:38:20] or Wistia Soapbox or one of those Williams? Is that my assumption? Do you want to tackle that question first, dude?

David Dulany:

Yeah. So, and I'm not familiar with that tool, so is it kind of a [inaudible 00:38:33]?

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah, I think it is. I believe it is. I'll check. Yes. Okay. Chad Burmeister says it is. Hey, Chad?

David Dulany:

Hey Chad.

Ryan O'Hara:

I seen you man. Go ahead. Yeah. So I guess it's like a video prospecting app.

David Dulany:

[inaudible 00:38:45] on this. We got to get Chad on here. You can make a video for him. I mean, the thing with video is taking it back to the AB testing, right? And I keep going back to that. Try it, see if it works. If it's working, go with it and try to iterate and make it perform better. With the video itself, again, the message has to be super relevant because a lot of what we find is the videos get blocked in the spam filter or they they're axed out of the message when the prospect gets it. So if we can actually get a video in front of them, and by the way, Drift offers a thing where you can put a video into your LinkedIn in message, which is crazy. So we know that that's actually going to get through, unless they block you on LinkedIn.

David Dulany:

But the message has to be super tight. It's got to be something that's compelling. It's got to be pain centric or pumping up their ego or something like that to get them to execute the call of action. Again, it goes back to nothing, spamming about your product in that one, just talk about something that's relevant to them in the video, because what a great medium if you can get it through.

Ryan O'Hara:

One thing that I'd recommend, I did a longer piece of content on this doing some experimenting last summer, I did a ton of video prospecting just to see what works and what doesn't work. If you send it over email or LinkedIn message, the longer your video is less text in the actual copy that you send with the video. So if you were sending something on LinkedIn, for example, don't write a long block of text for the video, make it really short and use the text to bait someone to watch the video.

Ryan O'Hara:

If you're doing it over email, same thing. If you're doing a shorter video, use more texts than the email to balance off with the shorter text. What I've been doing lately is find something cool that's in your home life, hold up your laptop, use the webcam and show something cool. Maybe I'm taking a video when I'm next or Beethoven back here. And I'm like, "Hey, I'm just showing a Beethoven. I know you're a big fan of classical music. I saw you went to Berkeley. We actually, we're trying to break into your company 'cause I think we can help you with this area and I know you oversee this part. I think it'd be a really value prop XYZ. What are your thoughts on talking?"

Ryan O'Hara:

The same format that you'd use for in a cold call you want to do in a cold email? Don't just read what you would do on a phone, 'cause you've video to make a human connection with someone. Show some personality off. I once saw one of the video reps, for example, my Internet's dying a little bit, but one of the video ad reps that I had they were actually doing magic in a video. They'll do magic. Find something extraordinary that you can show them in the video and do it. And you can kind of show it off a little bit.

Rishi Mathur:

We had two more questions, those were follow-ups on your 10 minute game. The question was, "Is it research, email, call all in 10 minutes?" That's basically the question.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah. So it is. The idea is that you don't want to get bogged down in a warm hole researching your prospect. We'd say to come up with five things. Here's some things you can research when you're prospecting someone. Think of how you made friends in grade school, right? Or middle school or high school. Usually it's common interests, mutual friends that you both know, that's what you want to do here. See if you can find those things, find five things. If we're prospecting David, I might be like, "Hey, I saw you do this conference. I haven't been to this conference before." Maybe that's one thing you bring up. If I was prospecting him and saw that he worked at another company before I might mention the past company and say, "I know this person, did you know them?" You can bring different angles up like that. Those are some really quick standard boiler plate, things you can research that you bring up.

Ryan O'Hara:

I think the school thing's over done now. You know what I mean? You'll see a lot of SDRs are like, "I saw you went to UC Berkeley." And it's all right. But it can be overdone when you use that stuff. So it's totally up to you on that end, but the idea is that you can move in streamline that and do it a lot faster. So one thing I wanted to ask you is how do you find the right accounts that prospect? You get these clients that come in the door and they want to work with you, do you look at that, do you audit who they're prospecting or what's that process like for you?

David Dulany:

I mean, usually there's not a great a way to even record that in the CRM. So that might be the first thing that we look at. It's how are you able to mark out the accounts and know whether one's a good one or not, so that you can run a report? I mean, something as simple as that. Trish Bertuzzi has a great way to organize it, where A is your dream account, B is going to be your bread and butter, pays the bills, C, you'll take it if it comes inbound, but if you're not going to go outbound toward it, and then D, si we can never sell to this company so they shouldn't even be in the database. And we would never go outbound, right? So first things you could look at is just how's our organizational system? Can we run a report right now of all the A dream accounts that we want to go after? And if you can't, then that's something that you should probably consider setting up. And it's an easy thing to continuously update as long as everybody knows what an A account is.

Ryan O'Hara:

How do you do that? How do you do that? Do you just make a field in Salesforce? It's like, "Hey, this is an A account or what do you...?" Is it user submitted, is that how you usually do it?

David Dulany:

Yeah. I mean, so you could mass upload a change. So once you have some sort of dropdown on the account level, then you could do a mass change, and change a group from a CSV file to A, or just have them as their prospecting go through and they have the criteria for what it means to be a dream account and they drop it down to A and press save. Again, it's not rocket science. And so to your question though, how do you determine what's a dream account or bread and butter or a C account, you got to sit down and say what have been the dream accounts? What are the criteria from a funding perspective or revenue perspective, from a head count perspective, what kind of technologies should they use? What makes something that would be a game changer for our business into an A account? And then let's get at least five or six bullet points down on a piece of paper that says what that is. Great. Everybody agree on it. Awesome. Here we go. Let's start marking it out. Same with B, same with C, same with D.

David Dulany:

So that's at a basic level how you can set it up. Then if you get more sophisticated and you have more revenue and/or more resources, there's actually tools, lots of tools out there that are very advanced, analytic tools that you can plug in to organize your database for you and determine it based on a predictive analytics and things like that. But at the most basic level, at least start marking it out so you can run a report right now and say, "Tell me what are your dream accounts?" Most companies can't even do that.

Ryan O'Hara:

So one follow-up question on this sort of, so with value proposition when you're actually doing cold call and cold email, you probably help a lot of companies with that too, right?

David Dulany:

Yeah, we [inaudible 00:46:26].

Ryan O'Hara:

Do you typically? How many different... So I have a theory here and tell me if I'm correct here. I think a lot of the time companies will talk about stuff, you'll see prospectors that describe stuff as if are market ready, which is not necessarily always right, because the advantage an SDR has, or an [inaudible 00:46:45] that's prospecting is that they can differentiate and tweak their messaging based on the prospect that they researched. What do you do for messaging? How many different things do you line up? Is it, Oh, it's just one, or is it I'm going to have 50 different value prop messages I can use for different scenarios? Or how do you set it up for your clients?

David Dulany:

Yeah. So what we recommend is that within each vertical, so if you're just starting out, you might just have one that you're going after industry wise, or they use this certain tool so you need to talk to them. So within that, there's going to be a group of people at those companies that may either make a decision or influence the purchase. And we'll bucket those into, I don't like to say persona, because it has a lot of, people just get triggered, but we'll bucket those into people group. And within those people groups, each of those people right now during this crisis, for example, has a certain number of problems that they're trying to solve. There's probably five or six problems per person.

David Dulany:

Okay. So let's list out each of those five people that we're going to be talking to. And then underneath there, write out at least three to five problems that they're having right now. Okay. Now we've got 20 or 30 pieces of information across there, and there's 30 potential messages right there that we can use for our cold call, we can use for our email, we can use for our video, et cetera, problems, problems, problems that they're having. We hear out there that people like you Ryan have these problems that...

Ryan O'Hara:

Oh, I have problems, all right.

David Dulany:

I got problems. [inaudible 00:48:32]. I got a lot of freaking problems. If somebody reached out to me and they're like, "Hey, we talked to a lot of people like you who have this problem and we can really help genuinely. Can I get a few minutes of your time? Dude, [inaudible 00:48:46].

Ryan O'Hara:

Tell me how you feel. I'm ready to listen.

David Dulany:

Yes. Lie down on the couch. If somebody is out there and they're like, "Hey," okay, so if somebody wants to prospect me right now, "Hey, David, I hear that you transferred from a live conference this year to virtual conferences, and we have a thing that can get exactly the people that you want to sign up in droves for your virtual conference. Can you give me five minutes of your time to show you how it can help with that?" Dude, I would take that call all day. I want to figure out how to do that.

Ryan O'Hara:

Yeah.

David Dulany:

You know what I mean? So you got to figure out what that is for you, for your SDR team and then build all your messaging.

Ryan O'Hara:

I feel a lot of people think that prospecting can be luck and it totally doesn't have to be, it's not. If you're getting someone that writes back to you just because the value prop binds up, it probably means you're not doing enough. 'Cause there's other stuff. Some people honestly, if someone likes you, they're way more likely to read back to you and see you. So there's a way to deliver a value proposition that can be helpful for them, but still be likable while you're doing it and having an impact on that.

Ryan O'Hara:

So we are getting close to time here. I do want to ask a couple of questions about the sales development conference and one last call, if anyone wants to ask any questions before we wrap up today, in the Q&A, this is your last chance to do it. So ask some questions, we're asking this. So you guys are moving online with this conference. You obviously have a lot of great speakers and stuff. Why should people go to this conference if they're listening to this? And Oh, that was cool. What's the biggest thing they'll get away from it or take away from it?

David Dulany:

I mean, our whole thing from the get-go is we're a hundred percent focused on sales development and there's a lot of great conferences out there, but if you want information about sales development that's focused on that, then you come to Tenbound. And so if you look at the speaker list, it's going to be directors, and senior managers, and practitioners of sales development with other others sprinkled in. But it's really the hardcore people that are doing the job on a daily basis, sharing their best practices on how to do it better. People that I really admire and they really need to be out there. So if that's what you're looking for, then we got it. If you want to know other stuff, then there's a lot of other resources out there, but [inaudible 00:51:19].

Ryan O'Hara:

Let's not forget too, it's also free, right?

David Dulany:

Yes.

Ryan O'Hara:

The online version, you can literally watch it free and go. You don't have to pay for travel. You could sit at home in your pajamas and literary do this? I'm guessing Rishi is wearing pajamas right now under that suit coat, are you really?

Rishi Mathur:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:

This is a dream. You can watch some of the best sales development leaders do this in your jammies. It's a dream come true.

David Dulany:

Yeah. And this one, so Ryan just real quick, this one is really focused on leading the teams and getting out ahead of, from a programming level, as far as the processes and the tools. And so if you're trying to build a sales development program, if you're running one, or if you want to get into leadership, the one in June that's coming up is all focused on that whole process. So, it's really unique. It's going to be really interesting.

Ryan O'Hara:

What's the date for people, if they don't know?

David Dulany:

So we've got one June 18th, so that's in about a month from now. And then we're doing another one at the end of August that's going to have tracks for the leaders, but also for SDR specifically on tactical stuff and for revenue operations, for the plumbers that are putting everything together on the backend.

Ryan O'Hara:

I'm pretty excited. And on our end, we're actually going to do a special B2B Tonight episode during the conference. So Rishi and I will be doing the same thing. I don't know who we're going to get yet. We'll have to look at your speaker list and be like, "Oh, who should we interview in some." They will do a mega episode or something. I'm really looking forward to it. The last year I went, some of the best talks I ever saw were from that conference. A lot of them are really... It's a good mix of individual tactical stuff and big strategy stuff that you can do for the sales development team. How do people sign up? What do they have to do?

David Dulany:

Just head over tenbound.com, T-E-N-B-O-U-N-D.com. And there's a big button right there. It's free. And by the way, all the talks from 2019, 2018, 2017 are posted on Tenbound for free to watch as well. So there's just a treasure trove. We call it like a PhD in sales development, if you want it. And it's free.

Rishi Mathur:

It'll be real Ted talk there.

David Dulany:

And Mr. Pep-Talk is available.

Ryan O'Hara:

He doesn't do Ted Talks, Rishi, he does Fred talks. All right. That's what he's made. It's a bizarre version of Ted talks. So thank you very much David for being on. On our end, there'll be a recording emailed out to people. What I want to remind people is we're going to post those videos of asking those other people to come on, please look for my profile, Rishi's profile, and the LeadIQ LinkedIn profile. We're literally going to post videos of us out, the videos we filmed with all of you earlier asking for these people to be on, and we could use our help and getting their attention with some likes and comments and stuff. So please help us if you don't mind. I know Rishi was a little needy in his, he's very needy in real life, makes me uncomfortable. Please stop making eye contact with me, Rishi, please.

Rishi Mathur:

I don't make eye contact with you ever, David. I never do.

Ryan O'Hara:

Thank you very much David Dulany for being on. Everyone else, we'll talk to you soon. Thank you for coming on.