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Episode 12: Allen Gannett

Ryan O'Hara:
The people are coming in. They have no idea what they've signed up for. They think that they came into something. They're like, "I'm going to get a lot of cool insight and ideas." Literally, no, this is a trick. We're going to pitch you... No, I'm just kidding. We're not going to pitch you. What's up, Rishi?

Rishi Mathur:
What's going on, Ryan?

Ryan O'Hara:
Nothing. We're letting the people come in. I'm scaring them away. I like that you, I said that and the attendance drops in half. You know what I mean?

Rishi Mathur:
I mean, it hasn't grown. So, I think we're stuck.

Ryan O'Hara:
We're doing [inaudible 00:00:25]. Yeah, yeah.

Rishi Mathur:
The word got out. So, anyways, what's going on? How are you feeling? Are you good?

Ryan O'Hara:
I'm okay. Yeah, I'm in that end of wits, and where I want to be around people. I miss events. I miss being around and actually having communication with people. But I talked to my therapist this week, and she thinks that me and my wife are going to work things out.

Rishi Mathur:
Wait what? What does that have to do with your wife? Wait, so you and your wife not going so well?

Ryan O'Hara:
Oh, I mean, I was-

Rishi Mathur:
Is that why you call me all the time while you're cooking bacon? Are you sick of her face?

Ryan O'Hara:
This is a true story for people that don't know. I actually legit call Rishi whenever I'm cooking bacon for some reason. So, I'll make breakfast for lunch. Get the skill of going every time I FaceTime Rishi.

Rishi Mathur:
It's been almost every day except for a couple days, which shows your health diet. Ryan, I think this, you should talk to your therapist more than about your wife. You should talk to her about how your dad left you when you were younger, you remember that?

Ryan O'Hara:
Rishi, you know I have abandonment issues. Actually, before we get started, we're really excited. We have Allen Gannett on tonight. Speaking of abandonment issues, we have some housecleaning items to talk about. For people that have been following us for a long time on B2B Tonight this is actually Rishi's last episode. You want to tell... Rishi, you want to talk about that a little bit?

Rishi Mathur:
Yeah. I'm leaving the company, and it's just a very bittersweet moment. I'm going to greener pastures some people would say, me...

Ryan O'Hara:
Go ahead.

Rishi Mathur:
That's all. I don't know what else to say. It's just like a... It's a bittersweet moment. You know, Ryan?

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah, well-

Rishi Mathur:
It's a bittersweet moment. I think we had a lot of great memories together, did we not?

Ryan O'Hara:
We did. Actually, we decided, I asked Nick our producer to put together a nice little highlight reel for you. So let's get that going. We're going to play a nice little highlight reel for Rishi. Just as a thank you for all your time here. It's been a couple years we've worked together.

Rishi Mathur:
Nick has made me a highlight reel. This is... What?

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah, let's check it out if we can. Is that cool? Keep waiting, Nick.

Rishi Mathur:
Oh, thank you guys. Hey, Ryan. So, I'm leaving the company. My last day is going to be January 22nd. What? Why does it say in memoriam? I'm not dead. I'm alive.

Ryan O'Hara:
Rishi, I'm so happy you're leaving.

Rishi Mathur:
Are you drinking champagne?

Ryan O'Hara:
Thank God. Thank God. That was the highlight. That was the best part of our two years is you tell me you're leaving. I've been trying to figure out how to get you out of here for so long, and it's happened, baby. What's up, everybody? Cheers. Everyone in chat. Cheers, by the way.

Rishi Mathur:
Please don't cheers. This is terrible.

Ryan O'Hara:
All right. Well, let's get to the main point here, Rishi. Do you want to say anything to the audience as a farewell or anything?

Rishi Mathur:
Yeah. No, I would definitely do. This transition has been very emotional. I'm in an emotional roller coaster.

Ryan O'Hara:
Actually, you know what, Rishi? We're actually coming up on time. Let's get to our guests. Let's talk about today's guest today. Our guest that we have today is someone that I saw speak at Ramp a couple years ago in Boston. I was blown away at the talk he had, and what I've been trying to do with B2B Tonight is get guest on here that I've been wanting to talk to you. He authored the Creative Curve, which is an awesome book about creativity. It proves that none of us are special. And what really makes us special is knowing the protocol for it. Everyone, say hi to Allen Gannett What's up, Allen?

Allen Gannett:
Hey, guys. How are you? You guys are really mean to each other. I'm recovering right now.

Ryan O'Hara:
I don't... Mean? I don't know if that's-

Rishi Mathur:
He started. I think it's a bully culture, and I don't disagree with you.

Allen Gannett:
I'm going to write some scathing Glassdoor reviews.

Ryan O'Hara:
Listen. Rishi, we were going to do your exit interview on here. But I was like, I don't even want to give you one. I don't want [crosstalk 00:04:08]. So, a lot of what we want to talk about today-

Rishi Mathur:
Oh, before we begin real quick, I just want let the audience know you have any questions, you could chat it to us or put in the Q&A and we'll get right to it. Just letting you guys know out there.

Ryan O'Hara:
Thank you. Thank you, Rishi. So, a lot of people want to know how to be more creative with sales, prospecting, marketing, business in general. I think we all agree that business in general is kind of like, a lot, especially B2B companies are dumb. They don't do fun marketing. They don't do fun sales. I want to try and understand ways that people that you've studied are creative, and how reps that are watching or managers and leaders listening to this can figure out how to be more creative. And I think that's sort of the theme we want to talk about here. Allen, what made you write this book in the first place? I know it's been out a couple years. So, I'm the lame guy bring up a book that was a couple years ago, but that's the speaker circuit that I cruise on. What made you write the book in the first place?

Allen Gannett:
Well, first of all, I mean, we're glad the book is still coming up. So, let's talk about as much as you want. So, basically, I'm originally from New Jersey, and I don't know if anyone else here is from New Jersey-

Rishi Mathur:
Me, I am.

Allen Gannett:
Rishi apparently is. Yeah, and it's a place where it's a weird place. Like, you can't make left turns. You can't pump your own gas. We're just sort of like a frustrated type of people. And I was spending a lot of time working with marketers, the company, I ran for seven years, sold to marketers, and I would hear all this stuff about how like, "Oh, I'm not that creative." And I just got annoyed because I was like, "What are you talking about?" Why are you limiting yourself? What's all this negative self talk about?" That's just not reality. People aren't just born creative, or not creative. And I realized that I'm actually in the sort of minority view there. Most people think creativity is sort of this like divinely inspired thing, and that's BS. And so, the book really came out of this need to make a point, which maybe Rishi growing up in New Jersey kind of gets.

Ryan O'Hara:
So, I'm a big fan of New Jersey, except Rishi. It's the only thing I don't like out of New Jersey. Why do you think people do that? Why do people say, "Oh, I'm not creative," and stuff. Do they think it's like a brain thing? Is it like this, stuff like that?

Allen Gannett:
I think there's an explicit answer and a subtle answer. So I think the explicit answer is that we're conditioned based on the narratives around creativity to think of it as a divine thing. So, we hear these stories around Mozart or Steve Jobs, and they're sort of like, they seem magical. They seem to do this all themselves, even though that's completely untrue. Like Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, from day one. Like Mozart actually wrote his first truly original piece of music when he was 16, or 17, not when he was three as we tend to think about. And so, we've sort of confused this sort of like Hollywood, PR, marketing version of creativity with the reality. That's the sort of explicit reason.

Allen Gannett:
The subtle reason is I think for a lot of us there's also an element of it's just easier and more convenient to think of creativity as something like that. Because if it's not that, if the reality is that I have to put in a lot of work, but I could do it. Well, that doesn't actually give me a reason not to try. And I think there's a lot of human instinct around homeostasis, around not pushing too hard. And I think we like to give ourselves permission sometimes not to try. And I think this idea of creativity as being this semi-divine activity gives us a reason to be like, "Well, okay, I'm not going to try to write that novel because I'm not creative enough to do it."

Rishi Mathur:
Do you think that comes with a lot of negativity growing up and judgment that they just get too freaked out to do it?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. And I think also, don't forget, culturally, at least in the States, culturally, we talk about creativity as a way to be poor, right? There's all this stuff around, "Oh, you have an English degree? Do you want to become a barista?" And this sort of negative conditioning is really impactful for people. Even though if you think about over the next 100 years, what are the skills that are going to be the least likely to be replaced by AI? What are the skills that are going to be the most important? They're all liberal arts, creativity, all these things that machines are not going to be able to automate.

Ryan O'Hara:
I love that you're saying that. I tell people that all the time. Another thing that a lot of people don't think about also is if AI is going to replace sales, or sellers or prospectors or things along those lines, you're going to be... It's not just going to be a robot that's spitting out text that seems like it's human. It's going to have to be a robot that's spitting out texts that you designed. The creative thinking that AI will use will come from a human always, no matter what you build. It's influenced by human nature and stuff.

Allen Gannett:
And the optimistic view of this is that as machines can automate more and more things, hopefully, we will be able to have more leverage and use our creative skills, and use our strategic thinking to do things that are more impactful. That's the sort of optimistic view of it.

Rishi Mathur:
Can I jump forward a little bit? Because you talk about something called the threshold theory. I'm curious to know, what's the importance of this theory?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. Great question. So, there's a lot of research around creativity. So, if you look at a lot of different academic fields, there's psychology, neuroscience, anthropology, sociology, there's a lot. And one of the things that's most fascinating is that this model of creativity that's really become immersed into our culture is what I call the inspiration model of creativity. It's this idea that creativity is like, it's for these solo geniuses who have this magical ability. And we can think of them. Steve Jobs, J.K. Rowling, we can think of these people.

Allen Gannett:
But when you actually look at the science, you find that science doesn't support this notion at all. So the threshold theory is this theory that finds there's all these different studies that look at this, that when you look at IQ, and creative potential, what you find is that pass a relatively average IQ threshold, people all have the same creative potential. So you can have an IQ of 110 or 160, and you have the same creative potential. And that's really important, right? Because that's not 100,000 people, generations on a million. That's billions and billions and billions of people with the same creative potential. Now, the question then for us and why there's a whole book that you can write about this stuff is how do you go from potential to achievement? And if we all have potential, then I think the question becomes, how can we learn to actually use that potential?

Ryan O'Hara:
To build off that a little bit. The thing we're trying to get to hear for people listening because we have an agenda, obviously, is you have no excuse. You can totally be creative. And you can come up with some ideas. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. But fostering a culture of creativity is really important, too. I know you investigated these great, extraordinary people that have done a lot of these creative things. What were... Do you think that that matters at an organizational level, like in a business level?

Allen Gannett:
Oh, yeah. 100%. Yes, in the book, basically, the first half of the book is sort of like a myth busters, breaking some of the myths around creativity. The second half is I interviewed 25 living creative greats. And I also went and spend time with some creative companies, and basically found what are the things they were doing to drive creative success that they were all doing. Things that are 100% compliance, and explain the science of why they worked. And one of the companies I profiled was Ben & Jerry's, and Ben & Jerry's kind of an amazing story, if you think about it. Started in the '80s, sold to Unilever in this huge transaction, wildly successful, tons of revenue, but also has maintained their brand reputation as sort of like zany, creative. Even though they're owned by Unilever, they're still associated with social justice. They've done a great job.

Allen Gannett:
And what's interesting is when I went there, I spent a day with the flavor team of Ben & Jerry's, which is like best job in America, right? And the thing that was so interesting was I was coming here, former B2B SaaS guy. And I was, okay, like, so you're bonused based on how well your flavors sell? And they were like, "No." They basically were like, "That's dumb." And I was like... And the reality that I thought was really interesting was they had this framework of how they thought about their job where their product was not the ice cream. Let me explain again. Their product was not the ice cream. What it was, was their product was their innovation process. Their actual R&D process, that's the thing that was their special sauce. And so, as they were trying new things, as they were attempting new flavors. Even when flavors failed, as long as they learned from it and could improve their process, then it was wildly successful.

Allen Gannett:
And you see this at a lot of successful creative organizations. Like Pixar, for example, same thing, their whole shtick is we know how to make movies. The movie itself doesn't really matter that much. And so this idea, I like to call it the process is the product. So, if you want to build a creative organization, one of the key things you need to do is to make people feel safe to fail. And one of the core ways to do that is change the mindset of your organization, and we can talk about how to do that, but from instead of our product is the outcome, the product is actually our process. That's what we're iterating on. That's where we're improving. That's our true intellectual property.

Ryan O'Hara:
So, one thing I'll add to put a little spin on it for sales and prospecting and stuff is the nice part about doing sales and prospecting is you don't have to. if you want to try stuff, it doesn't take as much work as it might take if you're doing a big marketing campaign, or launching a product or something. It's literally an experiment that you could try on. Maybe you try a Friday afternoon, you block off an hour and say, I'm going to make songs for prospects. I'm going to record it with a video.

Ryan O'Hara:
Maybe you grab your piano, you record and crank out five or six of these things, send them out. You just touch five accounts, worst case scenario they're not going to open your email, and they're not going to see it. Best case scenario, they're going to be like, "Holy crap, share with the whole team, and mobilize you into getting a deal that gets qualified." That's the approach you can take. I actually think one of the best ways to get creative energy going in a place is don't focus on doing, if you want to foster more of that stuff, do quantity instead of quality on some stuff with that creative thinking. Take a bunch of stabs. And then if something works, do it again, do it again, do it again.

Allen Gannett:
Totally. [crosstalk 00:14:38].

Rishi Mathur:
Can I actually cut in? Oh, go for it. I'm sorry.

Allen Gannett:
No, no, I was just going to say I think one of the most important things is with any creative process is incorporating feedback from your audience or your customers as quickly as possible. And to your point, like in prospecting, you have such a quick reaction time. It's so easy to be able to see, is this working or not working? Then inherently you have a lot of room for experimentation.

Rishi Mathur:
Right. So, hopping off that, this is a question for both you guys. If you're trying to create content as a salesperson, how much content... Because you talk about consuming content, how much content should a sales rep or somebody trying to create content consume? This is a question for both you guys. How much content is too much? How much is too little? Is there even such thing as too much content consumption?

Allen Gannett:
I mean, I think that if you're in sales, you have two types of content unique consume. One is you need to consume everything possible about your industry, your vertical that you're targeting. You need to know exactly what's going on in your audience's head. You need to know what they're thinking about, what patterns are going on. And our brains are really good at detecting patterns if you give it the information to work on. So that's sort of the first type. The second type and this is I think a little bit more tricky is it's really important to know what types of messaging your audience is getting from other vendors. So if, for example, there's if you've ever read, what's the book? Predictable Revenue, right? Predictable Revenue, sort of classic, it has here's some templates. Those templates at this point are junk. People have used them for so long. If you're prospecting, and you receive those templates, you're like, "I've gotten this before. This is not good."

Allen Gannett:
The issue then is if you are doing your own prospecting, you're doing your own outreach, if you don't know what types of messaging your audience is receiving, you don't know what's being overdone. I still get messages... No offense to anyone who's doing this, but I still get messages that are like, "Hey, were you kidnapped?" I'm like, "Are we not done with this weird little meme?" I was not kidnapped? I didn't respond to emails because I didn't want to respond to your email. Don't emotionally manipulate me. So, I think you have to understand what is the inbound? What is the incoming that your audience is getting?

Allen Gannett:
So, what I would say is that if you're, for example, targeting CIOs or CTOs, one thing you can do is ask your CIO your CTO, or people on their team to send you the prospecting messages they're getting from other vendors. Get a sense of what's coming out there because if you want to cut through the noise, and you have no visibility into what the noise is, it's very, very difficult.

Rishi Mathur:
So you're saying don't send your [inaudible 00:17:10] line saying, "Were you kidnapped?"

Allen Gannett:
No, no more-

Rishi Mathur:
You don't want me sending that to you. What about you're my lucky charm?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, no more of that.

Rishi Mathur:
Okay.

Ryan O'Hara:
The second that you read a blog post about use these five sexy subjects to get responses on cold email.

Allen Gannett:
You're already too late.

Ryan O'Hara:
It's too late. The second that that happens, it's dead. What I'd recommend that's a little bit more scalable for people is make subject lines. If you're doing something creative in an email, make the subject line involved and related to that creative thing you're doing the email. If I'm sending something with my dog in it, I might be like, "Courtney video." That might be my subject, and then that baits you into opening it, and then I better damn have a Courtney video in the body of the email or I'm lying to you. That scales and that will change and no one else can steal your subject and be like, "I'm going to go send 20 emails and use Courtney video even though there's no Courtney video." It wouldn't make any sense.

Allen Gannett:
I totally agree.

Ryan O'Hara:
That's totally where it's at. Another one that people use is the eaten by an alligator. Have you seen that one, Allen?

Allen Gannett:
No, but I instantly get what it is. It's like, "No, I was not even by an alligator." I'm annoyed you asked.

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah, yeah. So, Rishi, one of your questions you asked earlier was, can you consume too much content? And I actually think you answered one of the things that I love about your book and what I saw when you did your talk. One of the things that you talk about a lot is the people that are most creative consume a lot of content, right? it helps them with inspiration and stuff. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. So, basically, one of the phenomenons around creativity that we misunderstand is this idea of the aha moment or the flash of genius. And a lot of times we point to those as like, "Well, that's why I can't be creative because I don't experience those." And the thing we miss is that aha moments are really a pretty normal biological process. So, basically, they happen in the right hemisphere of your brain, left brain, right brain is kind of cliche, but it's actually pretty important.

Allen Gannett:
So, basically, your left brain is really very logical processing. Like math problem left brain. Your right brain is where you do more complicated processing. Think about metaphors, wordplay. If you hear a stand-up comedian, and you're like, you don't think through why is this stand-up comedian funny unless it's Adam Sandler. You just instantly get the joke. And so, your right hemisphere is where you get the nuance. Now, what's interesting is that your right hemisphere is constantly working. It's constantly putting ideas together. And it's right sort of below our level of consciousness. And it's only once it gets an idea that it pops up. It says, "Hey, I got an idea."

Allen Gannett:
And the thing is, is that you can only experience these aha moments when you actually have enough quiet to actually hear what's been going on in the right hemisphere. So, this is why we talk about aha moments happening in the shower, on the walk, on a commute, all these things. So, the two ingredients for aha moments, the first one is just quiet. But the second one that's really interesting is content consumption. Because if you want to connect the dots, you have to have the dots to connect. You can't just... You're not going to be hit with the idea for a great novel if you never read. Like Paul McCartney grew up in a musical household surrounded by musical parents. Yeah, his aha moments are about music, and yours are about prospecting. That makes sense. And so, because our right hemisphere is so good at coming up with new ideas, the task then for us is simply to feed it with the raw materials to actually do the work.

Ryan O'Hara:
So, one thing that I'll stem off of that a little bit from experience, a lot of people... We do a lot of cool creative prospecting. And it's not to brag. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just we do fun, cool stuff.

Allen Gannett:
That's really cool.

Ryan O'Hara:
But like literally last week, we posted a video online for an account we're trying to break into. We're trying to break into LogMeIn, and we found out our emails for some reason are getting delivered to their inbox. I'm like, "I'll just put a video out for them on LinkedIn." And I did something where I tried to audition to be a spokesperson for them, and I do a terrible job. Kudos to Nick our producer for editing it too. But one of the things I recommend is if you come up with that aha moment, and you want to you have a creative idea.

Ryan O'Hara:
You don't have to... Don't open an email and say, "I need to come up with an idea." Come up with an idea and write it down and then use that to apply to when you open an email. I have a list of ideas that I have in a notepad that I just write down for things. Like that auditions for startups was the idea that I had, like being a bad Billy Mays almost. And I wrote that down, and now I'm applying it to a prospecting video. I'm going to make six or seven more of these things, and reuse the idea over and over again, for different prospects. Because most of these companies aren't going to see the other thing that I did for the other company.

Allen Gannett:
100%.

Ryan O'Hara:
I can reuse it. So, that's part of it too, is like when you have that aha moment that quiet, if you write something down, you don't have to necessarily apply it today. You can use it later on. B2B Tonight was... I'll give you an example for this. Instead of doing normal webinars and stuff. When I worked at Dyn very early, we actually did... We did company meetings, and me and Mike Taylor were there. I'm just giving him a shout out, made our company meetings a late night show format. And I reapply that idea to doing it for webinars now instead. So, you can reuse and rethink of some stuff, and then repurpose it, but come up with the idea first, and then worry about how you're going to execute it within the realm of sales afterward.

Allen Gannett:
And one of the things I think is really fun about B2B is that because you don't have the sort of competition that you seem to have with consumer marketing where you're dealing with competing against all the entertainment and media that they're also getting. You actually have a lot more opportunity to stand out. And one of the ways, and obviously you're doing this, that I think is sort of like a hack. Let's call it a strategy, it sounds better. A strategy is taking metaphors from something else, right? So, your idea of let's do a late show format. That's like a metaphor. And so, we can draw those out from a lot of other places. So, if you started doing as a joke.

Allen Gannett:
Here's an example, sort of TikTok style videos, but for B2B, and you're delivering them to prospects. If you were marketing to serve your younger prospects who know what TikTok is, that'd be really funny and interesting because you're like, "Oh, this B2B brand kind of gets it right." And so, we as B2B marketers can use the fact that our audience is just getting less stuff from us, then we can actually use ideas that might stand out a little easier than if we were doing consumer marketing.

Rishi Mathur:
Fun fact, I got Allen Gannett for this by doing the walk dance. [crosstalk 00:23:41].

Allen Gannett:
See.

Ryan O'Hara:
What is it?

Rishi Mathur:
I wish show you later.

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, that is... I do not know that is-

Ryan O'Hara:
I don't know. I didn't know much about it. I'm sorry. [crosstalk 00:23:50].

Rishi Mathur:
But we do have a question from the audience on that note.

Ryan O'Hara:
[inaudible 00:23:53] why Allen blocked us.

Rishi Mathur:
So, a question from the audience. This is from Nick [Tarsi 00:23:59]. So, Nick asks, any advice on showcasing creativity via LinkedIn, i.e. feel like it's so crowded these days, but still the best one-stop-shop for business relationships?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, so I'd say on LinkedIn, to your point, it's like when they first started prioritizing the feed a few years ago, it was very easy to stand out and do stuff. I'd say now the big thing is kind of like what were saying before is I would look at what are other people doing and use that as serve instruction list of what not to do even if it's working. Just because sort of knowing that okay, if something's working really well for this other person, they've kind of occupied that whitespace.

Allen Gannett:
And so, I tend to really like this idea of looking for things that people haven't done before on that specific platform. So taking our metaphor idea, so one example that I've given that still no one's done, but I've given this example multiple times is... I guess during COVID this would be sort of impossible. But like, if you did on LinkedIn, sort of like an MTV Cribs startup edition, and you toured offices of startups. That would do really well. That's not even a hard idea to come up with, but this idea of that's something people aren't already doing. If you were like, "I'm going to do another straight up interview show that it's like, they've been around, a lot of them are working well. But that means that there's not room for you too."

Allen Gannett:
So, this is the same thing with podcasts. I get people messaging me about podcasts all the time. And the issue is people keep starting podcasts that are like, "We're going to interview entrepreneurs." And it's like, "There's no more need for that. We're good." There's enough of those podcasts out there. How about you interview the spouses of entrepreneurs, or the children of entrepreneurs? How does entrepreneurship affect the home life? You have to look at what's currently popular as a list of what not to do, not best practices to follow.

Ryan O'Hara:
I love what you just said, you got to zig what other people zag, basically.

Allen Gannett:
And it sounds cliche, but it's so true and very practical.

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah, the other cool part is if you do something new it makes people stop and look at it. That's kind of if you're trying to showcase your creativity on LinkedIn. One of the easiest things, maybe it's a transition to something in the book. I'm not going to use the right terminology for it because I read this a couple years ago, but they're... All right. If I give you a field, and I have a big field that's, let's say, a mile by a mile square, and it's just a nice, flat, perfect field with grass in it. And I said, "Hey, come up with an idea in this field." You're going to have trouble come up with a lot of ideas.

Ryan O'Hara:
But if you were to say, "I'm going to put 100 yard fence on each side," and you have that fence, instantly our human mind thinks of like, "I have eight ideas. I could do a rodeo. I could play football in there. I could get a sport. I could get a couple nets and set up a soccer field." The second you add constrictions in fitting into a format, it becomes easier for you to come up with ideas. You talked about this a little bit. I think the example you use is memes, right? [crosstalk 00:26:54].

Allen Gannett:
So, there's this magical thing with creativity where ironically constraints are one of the biggest drivers of creativity. And you can see this with memes, for example, where the meme is like, "Here's the format." And so, it's very easy for people to come up with their own creative twist on that format. Now, there's two reasons why. One of which is obvious, one of which is non obvious, but I think more interesting. The obvious one is that there's just less things to think about, so it's easier to apply yourself. All right, duh, right?

Allen Gannett:
The second one is that if you think about what actually drives human interest, why are people interested in certain things? There's actually some really important research out there, which basically shows that humans have these two contradictory urges. So, on one side, we crave things that are familiar, things that we've seen before, experienced before. We like certain restaurants. We like certain vacations. We feel like our home is very safe and cozy. On the other side, we have this competing urge for discovering new things, novel things. New restaurants, new vacations, maybe new friends, like Rishi is gone.

Allen Gannett:
And so, as a result, you have to have these two competing forces. And there's all this that our brain tends to gravitate towards things that are one foot in the familiar and one foot in the novel. Like Star Wars was like a Western space. That's literally what it was. And the result... Or like, I think about the iPad was an iPhone without a phone. The iPhone was an iPod with a phone. The iPod was a better MP3 player. Actually, the things that tend to do really well are not radically new, they're a little bit new. And constraints as a result are really important because constraints help you establish that baseline of familiarity. So, if a radio pong should be about three minutes long with four choruses. Well, then if you make a song that's three minutes long with for choruses, you at least have checked off some of those familiarity items. And so, as a result, constraints are weirdly super important to creativity, even though that seems super paradoxical.

Rishi Mathur:
Yeah, actually, that's really interesting to talk about constraints. I don't know if you remember this, Ryan. But back when we went to Chicago for the [IASP 00:29:11], whatever that conference was, we had just a table because we never got all of our equipment, you know supply chain breakdown. And so, me and Ryan had to figure out what should we do. And so the whole team got together and we decided to arm wrestle. We started to arm wrestling competitions. We created a board, we did everything. And I think if it wasn't for the fact that we have a table, a small space, we would have came up with the idea on the spot.

Allen Gannett:
And you see this with money. I mean, it's interesting too just to think about with budgets, sometimes having a smaller budget actually makes you think better and come up with better ideas. And so, yeah, constraints over and over again turn out to be incredibly valuable.

Ryan O'Hara:
One thing to build off that if you're listening in sales, think of the structure of what you need to have in a cold email or cold call. You do have constraints because you need to get... If you're doing something over email, even if it's with video, you're emailing a video to someone. You still need to come up with a really good subject line to get an open, so you have to think about that. You need to structure email in a way where it's easy for the prospect to know what to do with the thing that you come up with. I've had people try to prospect me before with some creative ideas that were great. And I respond because I am a good guy. But if I were at a bigger company and wasn't involved in the prospecting meta, I'd probably like get some of these emails and not know that you wanted me to reply or not wanted me to book a meeting.

Ryan O'Hara:
There's some things you always have to have in there. And then apply the idea that you have within those constraints, it will be easier for you to execute and not feel like, all right, I just made this video, now I'm going to write an email. What the hell do I say in the email? Well, [crosstalk 00:30:45], you know what to do.

Allen Gannett:
Totally. And this is why in sales so often it's better to have sort of like guides or outlines or bullets versus scripts. Because yes, if you're a sales manager, you want your team to hit specific points, but how we hit them, that's a lot of times where the creativity can really sort of take charge and actually drive better outcomes.

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah, I don't want to sound inauthentic here, but you also can, you can reuse ideas, sometimes too. If I see a prospect I'm reaching out to has tweeted a bunch of stuff about their dog, I might reuse my dog thing to find common interest with them, and still tailor it a little bit to be about them. Now, I'm not lying to them. But I just did personalization and crank something out really quickly, without having to go reinvent the wheel every time.

Allen Gannett:
100%. And I think there's also an element of like, I mean, like my company that I ran for a long time our logo was a dog, which is my dog. And yeah, anytime someone's a dog person, it instantly created a sense of affinity that was just great. And so, yeah, we would use it because like, wow, people like dogs. I like dogs. Puppies and babies.

Ryan O'Hara:
So one question. Yeah, of course. I loved your logo, by the way, too. I remember when I was a BDR many years ago I prospected you.

Allen Gannett:
How do you remember that?

Ryan O'Hara:
And you responded. No, you responded, I remember it. At the time was I like, "I want to get a Courtney someday, and I love your..." Anyway, but I remember I had common ground and something to talk to you about right away because you put that-

Allen Gannett:
I'm glad I responded. Oh, my God. Now it'd be so awkward.

Ryan O'Hara:
I wish I still had it backed up somewhere. I gotta find it. But I remember that, you've been on my radar for a long time because of that. I remember that when I was younger.

Rishi Mathur:
Actually, he has posters of you, Allen, right on his wall.

Allen Gannett:
No, they're really, really dark.

Ryan O'Hara:
Is it weird that I cut out the eyes? Is that uncomfortable for you?

Allen Gannett:
No, I think it makes it, especially because you're using it as a dartboard, you don't want to dart my eyes.

Rishi Mathur:
And he has you in different poses, a Michael Jordan pose. It's very interesting.

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, Photoshop.

Rishi Mathur:
Can I ask you a quick question about so you mentioned something about creative communities? And if I'm a rep trying to figure out how to be more creative, how can these communities help foster my creativity?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. We have a certain notion of creativity as a solo act, which is just so wrong. And what I found in my research was that all creatives, not some, all creatives were part of creative communities. And these communities take different forms. But for example, a lot of artists are friends with a lot of other artists. Now, this isn't necessarily because they're learning from the other artists, but even things like emotional support are really important. And getting that sense of that or other types of artists, it's really important to have other people in your field who lend you reputation. So, like musicians, for example, with touring. They tend to be opening acts. So, they'll bring on someone that sort of rising and up and coming but not as well known as an opening act, lending them credibility. Then as that person gets bigger, they do the same thing.

Rishi Mathur:
Right, they're doing the warm up to get the crowd involved, to get-

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, exactly. And so with sales, I think that inside sales is an incredibly hard job, emotionally difficult. And so, having friends who are also in sales I think provides two key benefits when it comes to being creative. One is it gives you that emotional support. And that emotional support, by the way, sometimes it's friendly competition. Like, "Oh, Sally got promoted. Okay, I should work harder. I should do that." But also emotional support means like, "Oh, I'm feeling down because I didn't hit my quota." Your friends who work in engineering don't know what you really mean. And so having those people who can emotionally resonate with you're talking about is really important.

Allen Gannett:
And the second is to get those ideas going. Have those people you can bounce ideas off of. Have people say, "Hey, we're in a different industry." By the way, this worked really well in my industry, you might want to try it. And so, making yourself part of a community, that is so, so, so important. Now, we live in a weird time where because of COVID, and all this stuff, so much of life is digitized. And I think that is fine-ish. I think it's decent, but I do think that so much of these communities should be, needs to be in person. So, it's really hard to be an emotional support for someone over Zoom. It's not possible. That's pretty hard.

Ryan O'Hara:
One thing that I would recommend, I was... I don't know how this happened. I just had good mentorship. But when I was in a BDR starting out at Dyn I remember I would go get lunch with random people at the company all the time, different departments. I eventually had a little bit of a click when the team grew, but I probably got lunch with over 40 or 50 different people in the company over the course of a year.

Allen Gannett:
That's awesome.

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah, but you get exposed to other ideas and how people think about things. Some of those people were engineers that I was writing emails to. I think that's part of the community building aspect too surround... Don't just... I think it's good to have a group, but don't be afraid to go do things with people that aren't necessarily in your group too.

Allen Gannett:
Totally agree.

Ryan O'Hara:
One of the other examples that I love is you bring up Ted Sarandos at Netflix working at a video store before. A huge aspect of creative thinking is consuming content and coming up with ideas that way. And you think a lot of that had to do with how Ted thinks about stuff, right?

Rishi Mathur:
[crosstalk 00:36:03]. Real quick.

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, yeah. So Ted Sarandos. He's now the co-CEO of Netflix as of a year ago. He for 20 years was the Chief Content Officer of Netflix, super fascinating guy, college dropout. And he's someone who I interviewed for the book. I remember when I was talking to him, the thing he really credited towards his success was this experience he had as a teenager where he got a job at a video rental store, which is like a whole thing I had to Google. Like an offline Netflix whole thing. Basically, he would go, and during the day the video store was empty because people are at work. And so, he decided... He really loved movies. He decided he was going to watch every single video in the store.

Allen Gannett:
And so, by the age of 18, he had literally consumed all that was out there for film at the time, and there were less movies back then, but this was still a lot of movies. And as a result, he developed this really deep understandings of what we talked about before of where were the lines between the familiar and the novel? What was too familiar? What was too novel? And he knew how all these things inter-related. And that gave him this ability to understand how new ideas would fall in that continuum, what new ideas really resonate. And it turns out that this is like a super common experience.

Allen Gannett:
Actually, Quentin Tarantino has literally the same exact story. He also worked at a video store. He also watched every single movie in the store. I interviewed a lot of novelists. And a lot of novelists have a very similar experience of like, okay, multiple novelists told me this story to the point where I was like, "I get it," which was like, I lived near a library and I read every single book. And so, consumption is literally the bedrock of creativity. But I think so often, because we have this productivity porn culture of you have to do things, you have to be active. When in reality so much of creating is preparation, is getting ready to have those moments of inspiration to then be productive upon.

Ryan O'Hara:
To build off that a little bit too. Consuming doesn't have to just be like, don't just go read cold sales emails and listen to cold calls. It's like things in life that you can consume. Ted's making business decisions that started from him watching movies at a video store.

Allen Gannett:
Totally.

Ryan O'Hara:
That's the impact it can have. I remember one of the questions we want to ask you is how do you deal with people that get creative block. Let's say you can't come up with any ideas and stuff. Did you talk to anyone about when that happens at all?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, what I thought was so interesting is that the traditional advice around creative block is to power through it. Write 1,000 words a day. And that is not how most world class creatives actually deal with it. There's plenty of successful creatives who do that. But the world class creatives will write a book and then not write a book for two more years. And what they're doing in the meantime is feeding that consumption bank. They're consuming. They're learning. They're digesting. And they're giving themselves those raw materials and letting things percolate. And so I think my advice for people is I actually don't recommend a habit around creating. Write 1,000 words a day. Oh, I don't like that.

Allen Gannett:
What I would say is create a habit around consuming, and it's actually a lot more consumption than you might expect. So I found that most of the world class creatives... Now we're not all trying to be world class. So, caveat, right? Most world class creatives spend three to four hours every day, consuming, three to four hours every single day. That's a lot. Now we're all trying to be world class. But I think we can use that as a north star saying, "If that's what it takes to be a Ted Sarandos, I better be at least spending an hour a day. I better at least be spending two hours a day. Whatever that is for you, it probably should be more.

Rishi Mathur:
Well, then going off that, what about if you overthink content? Because this one, this writer's block, you can't move forward but there's another aspect whereas when you create content. It's just that nerve like this is not perfect. This is not right. How do you get over the hump of am I overthinking it or am I under thinking it?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, I think this is where communities can be really useful. Because you have people who... For example, in writing, you typically have feedback readers. And so, I'm very deadline driven, but I'm also a self critical perfectionist, and to your point, that becomes problematic. So, I'm like, "I should rewrite it again. Why not rewrite it again?" And what I find is like creating deadlines with my feedback readers saying, "Hey, I'm going to send you this chapter by Friday. Can you read it this weekend?" Now I feel I imposed on them. I can't be late. And so, whatever quality it's in by Friday, that's what's going to be. And that encourages me, A, to work harder in advance of Friday, but also on Friday to be like, "This is what it is."

Allen Gannett:
So, I think finding ways to create deadlines for yourself, whether through social pressure, whether through actual deadlines, like in sales, you have quotas, right. I think that's sort of the best way to sort of cut back on some of that perfectionism.

Ryan O'Hara:
One story I always loved hearing about. I like movies and stuff a lot. And I'm kind of a film nerd, but one story I always love is the Coen Brothers when they had writer's block wrote the movie, Barton Fink, which is about a writer with writer's block. I think, if I... My timeline might be a little off, but I think it was after The Fargo had come out and they won an Oscar. They were writing The Big Lebowski, and basically what they do is whenever they're making a movie, they always have another movie that they're writing that's just a dump for them for ideas. And then they end up making that into a story.

Allen Gannett:
Perfect.

Ryan O'Hara:
And a lot of [crosstalk 00:41:34] stuff ends up happening that way.

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. I think the important thing to think about is productivity and creativity are different. And so, we could have a whole separate conversation on how to optimize your productivity, and that's one method. Another method that I really like to use is I just always have a little bit over, a little bit too much on my plate. Not too too much, but a little bit, so that if I get stuck on something, a lot of times, I'll also just go and do something else that I have on my list. And then that means that I'm not sitting at a computer being like, "How am I going to finish this chapter?" I'm just like, "I'm not going to finish it today. I'm going to go do something else." And tomorrow, nine times out of 10, I have an idea for how to finish it.

Rishi Mathur:
I think like for example, in stand-up comedy, when you don't know if something's good is open mics we go to, then there's small shows you go to. There's a level of different areas you can go to, to express, and I think with videos you can show friends, and you can show people near you like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" But then on those lines, I know when you people have writer's block, or some like that when they're working on something, exercise is really important for them. So, do you think there's a really big correlation with exercise and being creative?

Allen Gannett:
100%. Basically, because what we talked about before, the right brain, and the left brain. You want to do activities that allow your right brain to do its work. And right brain basically can do its work effectively anytime that there's not a lot of left brain activations. And so, what are moments like that? Quiet, meditation, you don't have to meditate. Well, it turns out also walking, running, working out the gym, all of these things are deeply meditative. There's also some interesting things for biological processes that go on in terms of endorphin release, and things that just help center you and again, quiet your left hemisphere. And so, exercise is a really magical ability on creativity and productivity for a lot of reasons.

Allen Gannett:
Interestingly, some of the reasons we talk about drugs being intertwined with creativity are the same reasons why exercise is important. A lot of drugs release endorphins. A lot of drugs depress your left hemisphere activation. So the thing I always like to tell people is, don't do drugs, kids, go on a run.

Rishi Mathur:
I actually wanted to make one announcement before Ryan go, we have about 15 minutes left of this interview. So if anyone has questions, concerns, they don't like Ryan's face or something, just let us know in the chat.

Ryan O'Hara:
Yeah. Or if we want to get Rishi out of this meeting a little bit, right? We're so close to having you out of the company. I can't wait. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Allen Gannett:
Brutal.

Ryan O'Hara:
No, no, we're fine. We're fine.

Allen Gannett:
Rishi is from New Jersey. He's used to. He's fine.

Rishi Mathur:
It's what it is.

Ryan O'Hara:
He needs this, he needs this.

Rishi Mathur:
Wait, you live in New York though right now, right?

Allen Gannett:
I live in New York. Yeah.

Rishi Mathur:
Look at that, me and you both, same upbringing.

Ryan O'Hara:
You guys are going to run down the street high fiving each other, and I'll just go [crosstalk 00:44:11]-

Rishi Mathur:
Yes, that was the point.

Ryan O'Hara:
So, one of the questions I want to ask you, Allen, creativity also... I know a lot of stuff we're talking about today is applying it to sales, emails, content, stuff like that. Creativity isn't just that either. There's a lot of examples of things you bring up on creative ideas in general, right?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, I mean, the thing with creativity is that if you think about it applies to everything from startups to art to I've done trainings and workshops to IT departments. Because ultimately, the sociology definition of creativity, which I think is the best definition is it's the ability to create things that are both novel and valuable. Because not just novel, because that would be productivity, but novelty and value. And that applies to all sorts of things. You could be in finance, you could be in IT, you could be in sales, but creating things that are both new and actually valuable. That is truly what creativity is.

Ryan O'Hara:
What about on the leadership front? So, let's say you're a manager and you're trying to get... You're trying to come up with some creative ideas on that end. Is the best thing to do, go talk to other managers, go see what they're doing? Is that the best way to come up with some solutions for stuff?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, I find that with managers having that sort of community and support system is really important because none of these experiences are things that haven't happened before. Like, oh, you have an employee who did X, Y, and Z, what do you do? It's happened before. The entire economy is like a management oriented economy. There are so many situations out there. And so, what I tend to find is that the best managers have a deep sort of kitchen cabinet. Friends, mentors, whatever, who can give in that guidance of when this happened, this is what I did. And this is what worked or didn't work, and you can take those lessons from it. And so, that really, ultimately, though, tied back as a form of consumption because consumption is information gathering. And so, even if it's gathering it from people, you're still consuming information.

Rishi Mathur:
So, we have a question from [Samir 00:46:11]. How can you create a habit of creativity? Is it as simple as doing it every day or more of a consumption of content? And sales is more attractive chase low hanging fruit? So I think this is something I'd be more interested in learning, thanks.

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. So, I think this is a great question. I think that figuring out for yourself what is a routine, which is sustainable. I think that's always important, similar with exercise. If you were like, I've never exercised before, and I'm going to now work out three hours a day, seven days a week. Well, within three days, you would give up, just because that's not sustainable. First, you'll be like, "Okay, I'm going to start walking." Then I'm going to the gym twice a week, then three times a week, then four times a week.

Allen Gannett:
And so, for me personally, my creativity routine or habit is I find I am really creative in the mornings from 9:00 to 11:30. That's it. Sometimes 12:30, that's it. And so, what I do is I just orient my entire schedule around I don't do meetings in the morning. I have my phone off until 12. And I do my creative work until I can't do it anymore, and then do everything else. I do things like this. I do prep. I do interviews for books I'm working on. I do everything else in my life afterwards.

Allen Gannett:
And so, I think aligning your internal clock to your practice is really important. And that can be on a daily basis, an hourly basis, a weekly basis. Dan Pink has a great book, I think its awesome called When, which is all about the science of timing both in the sort of like on an individual day level, but also even in a lifetime level. I think that's a really good book because it makes us point of our job isn't to match some idealistic schedule. Our job is to figure out what is our own schedule, and then try and optimize our life to allow for that schedule because that's what will be the happiest, that's probably the most productive, and it's going to be the most creative.

Rishi Mathur:
Yeah, I mean, it's about time management. For example, my day basically consists of me sleeping from 9:00 to 1:00, then 1:00 to 3:00 I'm working somewhere, 3:00 to 6:00 I'm back to napping. And then I'm creative after that.

Allen Gannett:
It's incredible. It's incredible. It's amazing what you've done.

Ryan O'Hara:
Rishi, I just want to let your last paycheck might not reach your [crosstalk 00:48:22]. Just in case you're curious, it's not coming.

Allen Gannett:
That's a big bottle of water, Rishi, what was that? Bring it back.

Rishi Mathur:
[inaudible 00:48:28] water.

Ryan O'Hara:
Oh, my God.

Allen Gannett:
Is that a cartoon? Is that real?

Rishi Mathur:
No, it's real. It gives you good morning, hydrate yourself. It just reminds me every time what you should be doing.

Allen Gannett:
Ryan, this explains why his skin is glowing so well. He is fully hydrated. Hydrated, that's the word.

Ryan O'Hara:
It also explains why every time I call him he's in the bathroom.

Allen Gannett:
Yes, this is true. He needs Thompson breaks.

Ryan O'Hara:
One thing I was going to recommend to that question a little bit. And this is for everybody too. You guys have probably heard me say this before in other stuff so don't roll your eyes if you hear it again. But most of the people that work in sales, you guys didn't grow up saying, "Boy, I can't wait to work in sales someday." We all have things that we have in our personal life.

Ryan O'Hara:
On sales teams I've been on there's been musicians, people that play gigs every weekend in a pub. We had one guy that was literally in the... We interviewed a guy for once for an SDR position that was in the Arcade Fire and left the band. You'll find the craziest people working in sales with different backgrounds and stuff. I don't know if you necessarily say this in the book. But I was thinking this when I read through a lot of the examples you have. A lot of these people figure out what they're passionate about, and sneak that passion into their professional life too. That's another easy thing you can do. Let's go through the examples. Samir, for you, do you have any personal hobbies you have? I know you're not a panelist, but if you're here and you're in chat throw in something.

Ryan O'Hara:
Maybe you like doing photography or playing music or grabbing a camera and making things, whatever hobbies you have find out... You're a soccer coach full-time before sales, actually. Perfect example. Find ways to integrate soccer into your prospecting and into your sales. If you're in the middle of a deal, and you're having trouble mobilizing a person to get other stakeholders involved, maybe send a video of you doing some cool soccer jumble kick things. You know what I'm talking about.

Allen Gannett:
The juggle kick, yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:
I can't do those things. But you know what I'm talking about, those things. Sneak things that you have in your personal life into your sales, and you'll enjoy it more, and it'll be easier for you to come up with ideas.

Rishi Mathur:
Actually, this is a question on management and managing creativity. So, if you're a manager, how can you incentivize and help your reps or people you're working for bring out their inner creativity? Is it intrinsic or extrinsic motivation?

Allen Gannett:
I don't think it's extrinsic. I think it's working on and coaching the intrinsic aspect. So, I think for a lot of us, a lot of creativity has been beat out of us by how the education system works in the west, and how we've oriented professional careers. And then the result is for a lot of us there was some moment, at some point, or someone said something. Maybe it was an English teacher who was like, "You're a terrible writer." Maybe it was a parent who said, "I don't want you to keep working on playing the guitar," whatever the heck it was.

Ryan O'Hara:
You're a bad son.

Allen Gannett:
Yeah. It gets really dark with Rishi. And so, the thing you want to do is figure out as a manager, you're also a coach, which is you have to uncoach some of that negative self talk. And so, I always try and caution managers not to play therapist. But I think with a lot of management, the line can sometimes become blurry if you want to be really effective. And I think the key thing to help people understand is what are these stories you're telling yourself? Is it that I'm too old to become creative? I'm not smart enough, whatever it is. Because let me tell you, there are plenty of people whose creative career start when they're old. There are plenty of creative people who are not that IQ bright, who are very creatively successful. And so, I think you have to understand what is the root of the negative self talk for the people you're managing? And then coach them around that specific thing.

Rishi Mathur:
Yeah. No, that's a really good point. I mean, Larry the Cable Guy, a lot of people think that's him, but it's a character that came out of just failing with his real self. And then one day he decided to become Larry the Cable Guy, and it skyrocketed his career.

Allen Gannett:
And he is like, have you ever seen pictures of him before? He was a suburban dad looking guy.

Rishi Mathur:
Yeah.

Ryan O'Hara:
I think my dad looks like Larry the Cable Guy. So now I'm wondering, is there a different... No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Rishi Mathur:
I mean, Ryan, you do like Hank from that cartoon show?

Ryan O'Hara:
What show? King of the Hill?

Rishi Mathur:
King of the Hill, there you go.

Ryan O'Hara:
I mean, he doesn't have long hair like I do probably right now. So, we are getting close to wrapping up here. I want to emphasize this other point you can do too with managers. It's not a bad idea also to do a talent audit. So, when I talked about it before, we should make this something that we make a consumable asset for all you people that are watching this, but you could actually make a little Google Form and collect... Send it to your whole sales team and say, "Hey, what cool skills do you have outside of sales?" And just have people answer it. They can check off a bunch of boxes of things.

Ryan O'Hara:
And when you click those results, when you do your sales team meetings, jump in and be like, "Hey, guys, we should do a couple cool creative prospecting tactics this week or sales tactics this week." Open up that survey, look at the results, and brainstorm with the group some ideas of what you can do. Another thing that we used to do at LeadIQ early on we had our SDR team, we only had four or five people. We do what I'd call off roadmaptis. I stole it from engineering. Engineering teams do this all the time. Basically, you only do something outside the box all day, and you do it one day a month. And it just kind of gets you experimenting. It forces you to pocket an idea and save it for that day.

Ryan O'Hara:
If you're in a big corporation right now and you're like, "I can't have my reps doing goofy videos all the time and stuff," and you feel a little uncomfortable with it. Take one day a month to go focus on that stuff. And it's a lot easier if you have a creative idea to assembly line it where don't just do it for one prospect, figure out a way to do it for 10 or 15 prospects and follow that process so that you can make it repeatable and you'll get more results out of it. Because I could make the coolest prospecting video in the world or juggle kick as I mentioned earlier. If that doesn't end up hitting the inbox, you're going to be all disgruntled and like, "I'm never doing that again." But if you do it for five or six people and one of them gets delivered and gets a response you're going to feel way better about it.

Allen Gannett:
Totally agree.

Ryan O'Hara:
So, Allen, we are getting near the end of the show here. This is the witching hour for Rishi. What do you want to plug? What do you want the people to know about you right now in life, and stuff?

Allen Gannett:
Yeah, I mean, you can definitely check out. I have a newsletter. It's just Allen A-L-L-E-N.X-Y-Z and there's links to social media and the books and all sorts of that stuff. Rishi, I mean, I'm flattered that I was on your last show, and I scared you off from your own show. That makes me feel really strong and powerful.

Rishi Mathur:
Well, you should. I mean, this is a very empowering moment for you guys. So, as always, I should be just leaving now, I guess.

Ryan O'Hara:
I do want to say this for real. Rishi, for anyone that doesn't know, I'm actually extremely sad that Rishi is leaving. I'm doing this just like a... I do it as a joke. But it feels like we're brothers, and it's really sad that you're leaving, but I'm really excited for your next opportunity, which you'll be telling people about next week. And just look for that. It's been a huge honor getting a chance to work with you, Rishi, and I couldn't have launched the show without you.

Ryan O'Hara:
Allen, you're one of the people I look up to you a ton, way more than I look up to Rishi. So, [inaudible 00:55:50] heartfelt moment for a second, but I'm really excited that you came on. If anyone has any questions for Allen, definitely go to his website, sign up for his newsletter. I assume you check the replies once a while, right?

Allen Gannett:
I check my email all the time.

Ryan O'Hara:
Okay, yeah. Go follow Allen. He's awesome. And I can't wait to see what you're working on next.

Allen Gannett:
Thanks, guys.

Ryan O'Hara:
All right. Thank you, everyone, for listening. We'll be sending a recording out by the way on Monday. So, look, it'll take a couple days, but you'll get it soon. Thank you, everyone. We'll see you later. Rishi, thank you so much. We'll see you.

Rishi Mathur:
Of course. Take care guys. That's just the students, what did they teach me?